Sincere and Phoney

[Mole]

I was talking to Bill the social activist the other day and he told me that the internet is not real.

I replied that the first novels were considered not real, and indeed women were advised against reading them.

And when the telephone was invented, it as also considered not to be real. In fact it is from the telephone that we get the word, "phoney".

So all new media are a shock to the system, also they numb us, and so we feel they are not real.

Until the next new media are invented.

After all, the internet is just a computer connected to the phone system.

And if the phone itself is no longer phoney, how long will it be before even Bill takes the internet for granted?

 

[thisGuy]

not till the internet can let bill talk to and see his niece an ocean away

or till it can buy his groceries

 

[Mole]

not till the internet can let bill talk to and see his niece an ocean away

or till it can buy his groceries

Well, Bill can talk to and see his niece an ocean away for free simply by downloading Skype.

I'm an ocean away. Try it with me. My Skype name is shortus.

But hang on, I am just about to order my groceries from the local supermarket - and they deliver for free.

But the price you will pay for phoning me will be your sincerity.

But I think it would be worth it just to hear the sound of your voice.

 

[Synarch]

Define "real".

 

[Halla74]

Define "real".

My thought exactly. "Real" is more than "tangible" isn't it?

 

[Athenian200]

I think that the Internet is as real as anything else I can perceive. It creates a certain distance from what you do, but that doesn't mean you're not still doing or experiencing something.

 

[Fluffywolf]

It's definatly more real for the introverts among as then it is for the extraverts.

 

[Mole]

The Real and the Phoney - The Amusing and the Boring

Define "real".

Real is simply relative.

And real is relative to the media you are using and that is using you.

In 1440 the Printing Press was invented and the first book printed was the Gutenberg Bible.

And it was the printed Bible the Puritans carried to the New World - the New Jerusalem.

So the Word of God was carried to the New World in print.

It was obvious that print was good and print was real.

But in this New Jerusalem the telephone snaked into every home. And the snake spoke to the New Eve and she listened, and worse, she spoke back.

And before long, when the phone rang, she would hold it out, just like the apple in the Garden of Eden, saying to her husband, "It's for you".

Good women no longer spent their time perusing the printed Bible but were talking to each other on the telephone - and talking and talking.

Soon the whole country was talking on the telephone and the Bible lay idle.

And alas, it wasn't as though all these talkers were reading the Bible aloud to one another, no, they talked about everything else but the Bible.

And people who tried to talk about the Bible were called Bible Bashers.

The telephone had won - no, the telephone had triumphed over print - but at a price.

And that price was guilt.

Guilt that that the one true medium, print, and in particular the printed Bible, had been abandoned.

The insistent ringing of the telephone could interrupt anything, and in particular, the telephone interrupted the reading of the printed word.

The telephone interrupted the real truth, the real printed truth of God, and replaced it with a tinkling symbol.

So quite naturally the phone became the epitome of phoniness.

And we became a divided people - guilty and phoney.

We are sincere in print and phoney on the telephone.

And so the distinction between sincere and phoney became one of our defining distinctions. As opposed, for instance to the same distinctions the Aussies make between amusing and boring.

The Puritans came to America with the Bible while the Scottish and English Enlightenment came to Australia.

So on one side of the Pacific, the New World became sincere and phoney, while on the other side, the New World became amusing or boring. And we became incomprehensible to one another, almost as though we spoke two different languages - when all we do is make different distinctions.

The sincere and the phoney; and the amusing and the boring.

So what is real depends on what side of the Pacific you are on.

The real is simply relative.

And we are relatives.

 

[Kangirl]

In fact it is from the telephone that we get the word, "phoney".

Is that true? If so, cool.

 

[Mole]

Is that true? If so, cool.

Would I lie to you?

 

[Kangirl]

I don't know Victor, I don't know you! But if that's true about 'phoney' coming from 'telephone' then that's just an interesting little factoid. I like knowing the origins of words...

 

[Mole]

I don't know Victor, I don't know you! But if that's true about 'phoney' coming from 'telephone' then that's just an interesting little factoid. I like knowing the origins of words...

Yes, and it is also like knowing the origin of personality.

For instance the American personality is defined by the distinction between sincere and phoney.

In America it is good to be sincere and bad to be phoney.

However the Australian personality is defined by the distinction between amusing and boring - such as in the saying, "The Queen is not amused".

However both the Americans and the Australians take these distinctions entirely for granted - they are part of the air they breathe - and so these distinctions become invisible.

And it is only when we start talking to each other across the world that these distinctions are contrasted and so become visible.

We are told with irony that we are divided by a common language - English.

But rather we are divided by our unconscious distinctions.

And it is our job to make these unconscious distinctions, conscious distinctions.

So that we may simply understand one another.

 

[Mole]

I don't know Victor, I don't know you!

Well, Kangirl, I will tell you - I will only lie to you to save your life or to save your feelings.

But really, I will lie to you only if I can get away with it.

And naturally, I will only tell you beautiful lies.

 

[Fluffywolf]

Bit far fetched.

I speak several languages and these unconsious distinctions are often pretty clear for any other person.

Dialects, entirely different languages. The impact they have on the personality is astronomically small. Since the distinction between saying it consciously or subconsciously all still holds the same meaning to the individual. Ie. we already understand each other. And I can't see the scientific value in exploring to what extent these lingual distinctions really mean to the brain. Because in the end. Language is about communication. We speak to be understood. And we understand what is spoken. If it's not understood the first time, we re-word and try again!

 

[Mole]

Bit far fetched.

I speak several languages and these unconsious distinctions are often pretty clear for any other person.

Dialects, entirely different languages. The impact they have on the personality is astronomically small. Since the distinction between saying it consciously or subconsciously all still holds the same meaning to the individual. Ie. we already understand each other. And I can't see the scientific value in exploring to what extent these lingual distinctions really mean to the brain. Because in the end. Language is about communication. We speak to be understood. And we understand what is spoken. If it's not understood the first time, we re-word and try again!

Good luck, mate.

In Holland you have Dutch distinctions and Islamic distinctions.

But hey, if you don't understand one another the first time, just re-word and try again.

Theo van Gogh tried this as he was being slaughtered by an Islamist.

As Theo was being stabbed to death, he said to his Islamic murderer, "Can't we talk about this?".

This is a civilized response in the face of barbarity.

But perhaps Theo made a mistake and he should have re-worded and tried again.

What do you think?

 

[Laurie]

My mom called my online friends "fake" - these are people that ive met offline now and forged lasting friendships with.

Interestingly enough, back in the 80's she was doing the internet and organizing meetups for the cleveland freenet - of which she still has a best friend that she talks to weekly.

Sometimes I think it's just fear.

 

[Mole]

My mom called my online friends "fake"

Well, the internet is just a computer connected to the phone line.

And what could be more natural than to call the internet, phoney.

I have 29 friends with one pending on this site.

And all but one of them is an ersatz friend.

So maybe your Mum is right.

You should always listen to your Mum - just wait until you are a Mum yourself.

 

[Fluffywolf]

Good luck, mate.

In Holland you have Dutch distinctions and Islamic distinctions.

But hey, if you don't understand one another the first time, just re-word and try again.

Theo van Gogh tried this as he was being slaughtered by an Islamist.

As Theo was being stabbed to death, he said to his Islamic murderer, "Can't we talk about this?".

This is a civilized response in the face of barbarity.

But perhaps Theo made a mistake and he should have re-worded and tried again.

What do you think?

I doubt Theo would have tried to re-word anything. But that's not the point.

What worries me is that you can seem to justify a murder based on lingual distinctions. That's just frightning. *nod*

 

[Lasting_Pain]

Would I lie to you?

Yes

 

[Tiltyred]

The etymology of phoney, from The American Heritage Dictionary:

[Alteration of fawney, gilt brass ring used by swindlers, from Irish Gaelic fáinne, ring, from Old Irish.]

The word has been around longer than the telephone and has nothing to do with the telephone.

Victor, honestly, you have no shame.