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  1. #11
    Senior Member Rohsiph's Avatar
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    I agree that there's not much of a difference, but the legislature would be there not to arbitrarily penalize self-destruction more than to facilitate justice for people who aren't hurting anyone (as opposed to facilitating justice for those who are hurting people around them).

    Slippery slope on the "where do we stop, then?"--textbook definition of slippery slope, even. Regulating salt? no.

    And I don't really see what's so "tedious" about wanting to experience clean air when in public places. I'm not going to pull your cigarette out of your mouth and give you a lecture on why I'm better than you (although I might think about it)--I really don't care about you that much.

    What annoys me is that it really is a tough issue, when the few subjective claims smokers can really make always sidestep directly replying to my rights as a chronic asthmatic to breathe comfortably in public places.

    Interesting to note legal issues concerning failed suicide attempts . . . not that I remember what they are, or would bother looking them up right now, but, noting scientific documentation over the last 50 or so years, it is a hell of a lot more like passive long-term suicide to smoke than it is to eat lots of salt.

  2. #12
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Survival is overrated.
    I get the whole James Dean thing, but smoking won't necessarily lead to a super-rad death; you might just get the pleasure of, say, breathing through a hole in your throat.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  3. #13
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rohsiph View Post
    Slippery slope on the "where do we stop, then?"--textbook definition of slippery slope, even. Regulating salt? no.
    I don't think slippery slope applies here. Least, not until people start walking around with salt shakers and pouring it in my food, anyway. And it also ignores that salt has 1-2 nutritional requirements (sodium @ 1000-2300mg, iodine) and is used as a preservative, of which the alternatives are worse... whereas smoking certainly does not have a RDI.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Rohsiph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I don't think slippery slope applies here. Least, not until people start walking around with salt shakers and pouring it in my food, anyway. And it also ignores that salt has 1-2 nutritional requirements (sodium @ 1000-2300mg, iodine) and is used as a preservative, of which the alternatives are worse... whereas smoking certainly does not have a RDI.
    I'm a little distressed, thinking perhaps I don't understand your reply here.

    I think you might be saying that salt would not be a slippery slope to worry about. I am a bit confused because you seem to say this in a way that suggests you disagree with the line you quote. However, I mentioned slippery slope as a reason to dismiss JivinJeffJones' second paragraph in his previous post, re his literal "where would they stop?" Or, at least that was my intention . . .

    I'm probably making too much of this asking for a clarification . . . oh well

  5. #15
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rohsiph View Post
    I think you might be saying that salt would not be a slippery slope to worry about. I am a bit confused because you seem to say this in a way that suggests you disagree with the line you quote. However, I mentioned slippery slope as a reason to dismiss JivinJeffJones' second paragraph in his previous post, re his literal "where would they stop?" Or, at least that was my intention . . .
    Nah, I just have a knack for confusing INTJs

    I meant that legislation to oppose second-hand smoke (public smoking) wouldn't fall into a slippery slope argument when compared to salt.

    The other reason for it not being a slippery slope argument is that salt (sodium, indirectly iodine) is a requirement for healthy living - it is the excess of salt that causes risks. This is not true for smoking.

    (I don't support blanket laws to reduce smoking, regardless of personal feelings, except in the case of public spaces... and possibly work spaces.)

  6. #16
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    My slippery slope comment was in reference to the OP, which suggested that all smoking should be banned because of its detrimental effect on health.

    As for second-hand smoking, I guess I find it hard to understand where you're coming from since I live in country with possibly the strictest regulations on smoking in the world. Smoking is not permitted here in any indoors restaurants, cafes, pubs or workplaces. It was quite a shock moving from Germany (where I first started smoking) to Australia.

    Personally I think many non-smokers define "second-hand smoking" as being able to smell any cigarette smoke at all, which I doubt has any greater detrimental effect on the health than ambient pollution. I consider second-hand smoking as being exposed to cigarette smoke with little ventilation in an on-going fashion, like in a car or in a smallish room. That sort of second-hand smoking I concede is an infringement on someone's right not to smoke, and should be a reason to designate non-smoking spaces (or smoking spaces) which would prevent this from taking place. Which is the case in Australia at least.

    What irritates me is people who, when faced with any number of other options, choose to place themselves in my proximity when I am smoking and then think I should feel guilty about smoking around them.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Rohsiph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    What irritates me is people who, when faced with any number of other options, choose to place themselves in my proximity when I am smoking and then think I should feel guilty about smoking around them.
    Ah--this I can understand (insofar as I understand you to mean that you are finding a place specifically free of non-smokers, and then non-smokers encroach upon the area you went out of your way to find).

    Personally, I want to go so far as a flat-out ban of smoking in all circumstances--but, personally, I also feel that way about alcohol

    Practically, I want legislation that grants "justice" for people in public places and, preferably, also in work places. Private establishments encroach upon a grey-area that I am not very comfortable with . . . technically, I note it is *really* infringing on personal rights to enforce the same laws of public domains on private areas, but if the establishment is one that routinely caters to crowds that regularly include non-smokers then I want to make the same claim as I do for public/work places.

    My value-system does not allow for relativistic live-and-let-live policy. However, living in the real world sometimes forces such policies upon me

    If you know the risks and want to continue acting in a way that is detrimental to your own health, I won't stop you as long as you do not also affect my health. (Unless you're family. Be glad you're not.)

    Re: ptgatsby--thanks for the clarification

  8. #18
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    I pretty much agree with Toonia
    money
    free will

    Besides social trends come and go.
    Today, society dictates that a heathy lifestyle=happy lifestyle.
    50 years ago, a happy lifestyle with societal status could easily be personified by a severly overweight general manager smoking a cigar.
    Like these two fellows:
    People continuing to smoke Cigarettes-lindberg-1-jpg

    Today, the the happy life with societal status looks like this:


    Personally, I get stressed just by looking at the guy on the last pic and I can honestly say, I'm not fast enough, not healthy enough, not smart enough, and not aggressive enough to even try to live up to that. I'd probably die sooner from living the healthy= happy lifestyle than from smooking.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Verbal IQ Test

    SubFacor IQ score = 65
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    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  9. #19
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    I find this discussion pretty funny.

    I must admit, I often have this phantom pistol on my belt that I want to grab and use to shoot the burning bit off the cigarette with...preferably when looking at the person straight-on. I am highly allergic to them (and I have asthma), so it's worse for me than most.

    Smokers are assholes, I've found, and they don't care about anyone but themselves. I wish their habit killed them a lot more quickly.
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    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    Smokers are assholes, I've found, and they don't care about anyone but themselves. I wish their habit killed them a lot more quickly.
    PMS?
    Verbal IQ Test

    SubFacor IQ score = 65
    Subscale percentile = 1

    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

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