Why is effectivity overrated?

[mlittrell]

i agree and still stick to my original post ^

if you are happy being "effective" then thats great. as long as you are happy

 

[Grayscale]

i agree and still stick to my original post ^

if you are happy being "effective" then thats great. as long as you are happy

ah, but i am actually disagreeing with the notion that some people are meant to be more ambitious than others, because that is built on the assumption that there is a certain way ambition, or "effectiveness" should resemble.

once you consider that everyone has better or worse versions of themselves (by their definition only) then there really isn't any excuse not to actualize that. the fact of the matter remains that everyone is some degree of the person they desire to be; argument can be made as to what that is (it's highly subjective, after all) but not whether or not everyone has a capacity to try.

 

[mlittrell]

thats what i put "effectiveness" in quotes... im using the definition as defined by society. i figured we were talking about "effectiveness" in terms of society...

 

[elementaltale]

I just read an article about this woman who has achieved several academic degrees, is a professor in a university, has acieved a lot in the area of sports, has been a successfull in beauty contest(miss universe type of competition) and even has three kids. She is not too old either and is very good looking and in very good shape. She is also very efficient while taking the buss to the other town (200km's away) where she is working. She uses her work travel time working.

Overall, this woman has all that the society appreciates. She is highly effective, beautiful, very intelligent, slim and in good shape + probably quite lot of money too. So, she is the dream come true of all that is appreciated in the society. I mean who wouldn't like to be her?

But on the other hand, one wise INFP once asked me when I talked about highly effective people in very respectable manner:
Are they happy?

My additions to that question:
Are we even contended with what we have?
Can we appreciate life itself or are we too busy to appreciate anything?

The final question is:
Why is effectivity overrated?
Or is it?

And she will lose all of that when she is dead.

Death is the great equalizer. It is kind of like a person who rushes to the stop sign while another goes at a slower pace. In both cases one thing is very clear...

You will both have to stop eventually.

So on the grand scheme of things everything she has is rotted and dead, time simply has not caught up with it yet.


As one person said, "He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless still dead."

 

[Nadir]

Why is that question the way it is? There is nothing inherently overrated about effectiveness (or efficiency), so the question itself is a value-judgment. You might as well ask "Why are politicians hateful, lying bastards?" or "Why does corn bread taste so bad?", it's the same thing, let's be careful.

Now a more reasonable inquiry would be regarding the value of achievement. I would say that it's a side effect of a capitalist economy, which apply for most modern countries. Ideas, products are in constant competition, and citizens are no different. Just as "good", popular ideas in such a setting are rewarded with sustained life, so does society appreciate achiever individuals, because achiever individuals usually achieve for a reason. You can, for example, blame the fuck out of Microsoft for being greedy bastards, but the fact remains that Mr. Gates did all the right things to get his creation to deserve that dubious honor. These individuals, like the woman you're describing, are exemplary because they have the potential to influence future generations to up the ante. Will future generations rise to the occasion? Mostly, no. But that doesn't mean she isn't exemplary -- even then, maybe not to you, but for the masses, sure.

Personal happiness based on achievement is a different subject and I can't both tackle it and do it justice in this post and in light of this thread's original post. I daresay that I would rather not hypothetize about others' happiness as I've never seen anything constructive come out of that practice when applied to individuals and not general trends. Best way to know would be to simply ask the person involved.

 

[Litvyak]

But on the other hand, one wise INFP once asked me when I talked about highly effective people in very respectable manner:
Are they happy?

Do they want to be happy? If their goal was to achieve effectiveness, and they did, they're surely content. If they wanted personal happiness, and ended up being effective instead, they failed. Why is happiness the ultimate goal? Isn't happiness overrated?

 

[nightning]

And she will lose all of that when she is dead.

Death is the great equalizer. It is kind of like a person who rushes to the stop sign while another goes at a slower pace. In both cases one thing is very clear...

You will both have to stop eventually.

So on the grand scheme of things everything she has is rotted and dead, time simply has not caught up with it yet.


As one person said, "He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless still dead."

That's an interesting view point...

A question for you:
If everybody dies sooner or later... why live? Why not die now? You'll be dead eventually.

I have a friend who told me the point of life is the experience. Whether the experience is enjoyable, worthwhile or not is as Nadir said highly subjective. Since different people would value different things.

If a person for some strange reason is happiest owning the most toys, and feels a sense of accomplishment in doing that. Then that's his beliefs. We have the right to think maybe he's far too superficial and is missing out on "true happiness". But in the end that's based on our judgmental values... who knows, maybe accumulation of wealth really is the thing for him.

 

[elementaltale]

That's an interesting view point...

A question for you:
If everybody dies sooner or later... why live? Why not die now? You'll be dead eventually.

I have a friend who told me the point of life is the experience. Whether the experience is enjoyable, worthwhile or not is as Nadir said highly subjective. Since different people would value different things.

If a person for some strange reason is happiest owning the most toys, and feels a sense of accomplishment in doing that. Then that's his beliefs. We have the right to think maybe he's far too superficial and is missing out on "true happiness". But in the end that's based on our judgmental values... who knows, maybe accumulation of wealth really is the thing for him.

The answer is simple...there is no reason from a physical standpoint why you should not or cannot die now.

Even if you disappoint others in taking your life, they will die as well so your disappointing people is only temporary. On the grand scheme of things you or I make no difference.

This is one of the reasons that rejecting the idea of God is something that we cannot afford to do. If God does not exist, then whatever you do is meaningless as all things that you do will end for you will not be there eventually to ensure their existance.

 

[Virtual ghost]

The answer is simple...there is no reason from a physical standpoint why you should not or cannot die now.

Even if you disappoint others in taking your life, they will die as well so your disappointing people is only temporary. On the grand scheme of things you or I make no difference.

This is one of the reasons that rejecting the idea of God is something that we cannot afford to do. If God does not exist, then whatever you do is meaningless as all things that you do will end for you will not be there eventually to ensure their existance.

One stupid question

What makes you think that Gods existance is not pointless also?

 

[Nadir]

This is one of the reasons that rejecting the idea of God is something that we cannot afford to do. If God does not exist, then whatever you do is meaningless as all things that you do will end for you will not be there eventually to ensure their existance.

This is not something so clear-cut as that. It might seem meaningless, or render everything else meaningless to you if you reject God, but that doesn't mean it does so for everyone. You might want to consider that most people that reject or are indecisive/indifferent about a divine power don't do it out of spite, but simply because they do not need such a concept to explain or provide meaning to life's phenomena and the way they live.

 

[elementaltale]

This is not something so clear-cut as that. It might seem meaningless, or render everything else meaningless to you if you reject God, but that doesn't mean it does so for everyone. You might want to consider that most people that reject or are indecisive/indifferent about a divine power don't do it out of spite, but simply because they do not need such a concept to explain or provide meaning to life's phenomena and the way they live.

Well, if you can accept the idea that your life will mean nothing in the long run more power to you. But that is the reality that you face. Anyone who believes that somehow they can overcome entropy does not know the true meaning of the universe.


Do you honestly believe that if there is no God that life has a purpose? Exactly what would that be? In sixty years or so, you will die. The generation after that, well they will die as well. The third generation? Dead. Forth? Gone. Fifth. Dead, rotted, and decayed. In fact on the grand scheme of things you already have decayed. Your mind simply has not caught up with time to the reality. That is not a mobid view. THAT IS REALITY. A fact to face. The practical view.

Suppose for a moment that you benefit people in some way you come up with a marvalous cure for cancer. What does it matter? You've only posponed the inevitable as the person or persons will die from something else. Death cannot be avoided. It cannot be cured and it cannot be barganed with.

So if you wish to avoid that reality that awaits you and your loved ones then by all means. But one things is clear.

If there is no God then you will lose all that you love and there is not a single thing you can do to stop it. Ever. All of your loved ones are dead and decayed alread and you will have to look upon their graves and weep for the loss that you can never recover from. All of humanity will have to accept this sooner or later. It cannot be avoided.

If you feel that this is morbid view then perhaps you should take a trip to the local cemetary and tell me why I am wrong. Again that is reality.

This is the fate for humans if there is no God. Any other view is delusional. Again if you do not believe that, take a trip to a graveyard.

 

[elementaltale]

One stupid question

What makes you think that Gods existance is not pointless also?

I would not call that a stupid question as I feel there is not such thing.

Pointless existance is what we have now as things do not last. As I said if you feel that this is stupid tell it to the 20 to 50 billion corpses in the ground.

So if I am wrong you will have to face the fact the life is pointless as it does not last.

Now...

consider for a moment that I am RIGHT about God. Suppose for a moment there really is an omnipotent onniescent God.

If God is truly limitless that means he can come up with limitless ideas. In addition since he would have the ability to keep people alive FOREVER that would change things quite a bit as you would always be around to make sure what you did mattered. THEN things that benefit people do so for eternity.

An unlimited God with unlimited ideas could bring unlimted happiness as there would never be an limit to his ability to please people and make them content. In addition if people were to be resurrected to immortality people would not have to worry about survival and could focus completely on other things that are worth the effort.

A pipedream? A delusion? Perhaps you view it that way. Perhaps you will roll your eyes and think that I am just some religious nut that will not accept reality as you see it. That is your right to do so and I respect your decision. Nevertheless, people here cannot say for sure there is no God. I however CAN say for sure what our fate is if there isn't.


However I have no desire to argue about the issue so I will leave you with the thought above and move onto other topics.

 

[Nadir]

Well, if you can accept the idea that your life will mean nothing in the long run more power to you. But that is the reality that you face. Anyone who believes that somehow they can overcome entropy does not know the true meaning of the universe.

Then let them face it. There is no such objective meaning.

Do you honestly believe that if there is no God that life has a purpose? Exactly what would that be? In sixty years or so, you will die. The generation after that, well they will die as well. The third generation? Dead. Forth? Gone. Fifth. Dead, rotted, and decayed. In fact on the grand scheme of things you already have decayed. Your mind simply has not caught up with time to the reality. That is not a mobid view. THAT IS REALITY. A fact to face. The practical view.

So what? You make it sound as if decaying is a bad thing. It is a natural process, and, as a human, we are no different from any other living entity. We are not outside nature, we are not outside death, and it's something you don't have to face, unless you feel the need to.

Suppose for a moment that you benefit people in some way you come up with a marvalous cure for cancer. What does it matter? You've only posponed the inevitable as the person or persons will die from something else. Death cannot be avoided. It cannot be cured and it cannot be barganed with.

I ask you again: So what? What is it about death's inevitability that bothers you so much?

So if you wish to avoid that reality that awaits you and your loved ones then by all means. But one things is clear.

If there is no God then you will lose all that you love and there is not a single thing you can do to stop it. Ever. All of your loved ones are dead and decayed alread and you will have to look upon their graves and weep for the loss that you can never recover from. All of humanity will have to accept this sooner or later. It cannot be avoided.

Again, you might want to consider that not all of us have a problem with this idea. I could empathise with what you said if you were immortal, but you're going to end pretty much the same way. And there's no knowing whether any God, if one exists, will bring you or your loved ones back. I'd wait until death to find out.

If you feel that this is morbid view then perhaps you should take a trip to the local cemetary and tell me why I am wrong. Again that is reality.

This is the fate for humans if there is no God. Any other view is delusional. Again if you do not believe that, take a trip to a graveyard.

There's basically no consistency in the things you say. Based on the things you say here, I could ask you "why do you equate this fate with being no God?" and you would not be able to answer me with anything substantial. I could also point out that you do not even seem to consider the possibility of you being delusional yourself, which hardly seems fair.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I would not call that a stupid question as I feel there is not such thing.

Pointless existance is what we have now as things do not last. As I said if you feel that this is stupid tell it to the 20 to 50 billion corpses in the ground.

So if I am wrong you will have to face the fact the life is pointless as it does not last.

Now...

consider for a moment that I am RIGHT about God. Suppose for a moment there really is an omnipotent onniescent God.

If God is truly limitless that means he can come up with limitless ideas. In addition since he would have the ability to keep people alive FOREVER that would change things quite a bit as you would always be around to make sure what you did mattered. THEN things that benefit people do so for eternity.

An unlimited God with unlimited ideas could bring unlimted happiness as there would never be an limit to his ability to please people and make them content. In addition if people were to be resurrected to immortality people would not have to worry about survival and could focus completely on other things that are worth the effort.

A pipedream? A delusion? Perhaps you view it that way. Perhaps you will roll your eyes and think that I am just some religious nut that will not accept reality as you see it. That is your right to do so and I respect your decision. Nevertheless, people here cannot say for sure there is no God. I however CAN say for sure what our fate is if there isn't.


However I have no desire to argue about the issue so I will leave you with the thought above and move onto other topics.

I don't want to debate it either. I just want ot say that to me living through eternity for the sake of living is pointless. I would rather die for real then accept that life.

 

[ptgatsby]

As I said if you feel that this is stupid tell it to the 20 to 50 billion corpses in the ground.

Hmmm... aren't you talking to their children right now?

 

[elementaltale]

Then let them face it. There is no such objective meaning.



So what? You make it sound as if decaying is a bad thing. It is a natural process, and, as a human, we are no different from any other living entity. We are not outside nature, we are not outside death, and it's something you don't have to face, unless you feel the need to.



I ask you again: So what? What is it about death's inevitability that bothers you so much?



Again, you might want to consider that not all of us have a problem with this idea. I could empathise with what you said if you were immortal, but you're going to end pretty much the same way. And there's no knowing whether any God, if one exists, will bring you or your loved ones back. I'd wait until death to find out.



There's basically no consistency in the things you say. Based on the things you say here, I could ask you "why do you equate this fate with being no God?" and you would not be able to answer me with anything substantial. I could also point out that you do not even seem to consider the possibility of you being delusional yourself, which hardly seems fair.

"I could ask you "why do you equate this fate with being no God?"

Reponse: Well then by all means please share with us this plan you have of how exactly you are going to become immortal.

I also love the fact how you know exactly how much I have considered whether I am delusional or not. I guess the last twenty years of myself asking that question is not relevent is it?


Response: Except for one tiny problem...

I'm the one with the 20 billion or so dead people backing up my point of view.

So do you wish to care to explain to them where I am wrong?

Where exactly is the delusion? What part of "we are all going to die" is incorrect?

So what? You make it sound as if decaying is a bad thing. It is a natural process, and, as a human, we are no different from any other living entity. We are not outside nature, we are not outside death, and it's something you don't have to face, unless you feel the need to.

Response: Well come back to me when you are laying on your deathbed and tell me the above. Then perhaps I will buy that you believe what you just stated.

So unless you have a plan to become immortal as I have said above...

Um, have a nice death I guess?

 

[elementaltale]

Hmmm... aren't you talking to their children right now?

You were born 5,000 years ago? I am talking about all of the people and generations that have died in the past.

You will die as well. We all will.

 

[elementaltale]

I don't want to debate it either. I just want ot say that to me living through eternity for the sake of living is pointless. I would rather die for real then accept that life.

If you wish to end a life that is pointless then I would suggest shooting yourself now as it is currently pointless. There is no getting around this truth... (I don't want you to shoot yourself by the way, I am trying to prove a point)

You can say that you have a lot to live for now and that may be true right NOW. But what about tomorrow? What about six months from now? What about a year from now? That is not clear.

But What IS clear is at some point in time you like me and everyone else will die. THat is a fact that cannot be denied no matter how much you wish to. Sure you can push it off with doctors and medicines but death will catch up to you.

People do not like to think about their mortality but it is pointless not to think about it as it is there and is a reality we must all face.

Well I for one would rather look upon an alternitive even if the alternitive is a delusion for at least it gave me some comfort. After all, life is a delusion. As shakespeare once said all the world is a stage.

You of course are entitled to disagree with this view and it will matter not to me just as my view does not matter to you. I repsect your view and you are entitled to it. I however have done enough research to feel that my view is not a delusion so I am content with that.

 

[ptgatsby]

You were born 5,000 years ago? I am talking about all of the people and generations that have died in the past.

You will die as well. We all will.

Well, I assumed you were talking about everyone who died, so it kinda includes fewer generations. Not many people died 5,000 years ago, afterall - bout 30,000 people in a generation IIRC.

I'll die, sure. I'm failing to see the relevance. My grandparents are dead, but I'm still here.

 

[elementaltale]

Anyway the debate is pointless as neither side is going to convince the other. Nice chatting with you all...I guess.