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  1. #21
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    i agree and still stick to my original post ^

    if you are happy being "effective" then thats great. as long as you are happy
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

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  2. #22
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    i agree and still stick to my original post ^

    if you are happy being "effective" then thats great. as long as you are happy
    ah, but i am actually disagreeing with the notion that some people are meant to be more ambitious than others, because that is built on the assumption that there is a certain way ambition, or "effectiveness" should resemble.

    once you consider that everyone has better or worse versions of themselves (by their definition only) then there really isn't any excuse not to actualize that. the fact of the matter remains that everyone is some degree of the person they desire to be; argument can be made as to what that is (it's highly subjective, after all) but not whether or not everyone has a capacity to try.

  3. #23
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    thats what i put "effectiveness" in quotes... im using the definition as defined by society. i figured we were talking about "effectiveness" in terms of society...
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by alcea rosea View Post
    I just read an article about this woman who has achieved several academic degrees, is a professor in a university, has acieved a lot in the area of sports, has been a successfull in beauty contest(miss universe type of competition) and even has three kids. She is not too old either and is very good looking and in very good shape. She is also very efficient while taking the buss to the other town (200km's away) where she is working. She uses her work travel time working.

    Overall, this woman has all that the society appreciates. She is highly effective, beautiful, very intelligent, slim and in good shape + probably quite lot of money too. So, she is the dream come true of all that is appreciated in the society. I mean who wouldn't like to be her?

    But on the other hand, one wise INFP once asked me when I talked about highly effective people in very respectable manner:
    Are they happy?

    My additions to that question:
    Are we even contended with what we have?
    Can we appreciate life itself or are we too busy to appreciate anything?

    The final question is:
    Why is effectivity overrated?
    Or is it?
    And she will lose all of that when she is dead.

    Death is the great equalizer. It is kind of like a person who rushes to the stop sign while another goes at a slower pace. In both cases one thing is very clear...

    You will both have to stop eventually.

    So on the grand scheme of things everything she has is rotted and dead, time simply has not caught up with it yet.


    As one person said, "He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless still dead."

  5. #25
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    Why is that question the way it is? There is nothing inherently overrated about effectiveness (or efficiency), so the question itself is a value-judgment. You might as well ask "Why are politicians hateful, lying bastards?" or "Why does corn bread taste so bad?", it's the same thing, let's be careful.

    Now a more reasonable inquiry would be regarding the value of achievement. I would say that it's a side effect of a capitalist economy, which apply for most modern countries. Ideas, products are in constant competition, and citizens are no different. Just as "good", popular ideas in such a setting are rewarded with sustained life, so does society appreciate achiever individuals, because achiever individuals usually achieve for a reason. You can, for example, blame the fuck out of Microsoft for being greedy bastards, but the fact remains that Mr. Gates did all the right things to get his creation to deserve that dubious honor. These individuals, like the woman you're describing, are exemplary because they have the potential to influence future generations to up the ante. Will future generations rise to the occasion? Mostly, no. But that doesn't mean she isn't exemplary -- even then, maybe not to you, but for the masses, sure.

    Personal happiness based on achievement is a different subject and I can't both tackle it and do it justice in this post and in light of this thread's original post. I daresay that I would rather not hypothetize about others' happiness as I've never seen anything constructive come out of that practice when applied to individuals and not general trends. Best way to know would be to simply ask the person involved.
    Not really.

  6. #26
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alcea rosea View Post
    But on the other hand, one wise INFP once asked me when I talked about highly effective people in very respectable manner:
    Are they happy?
    Do they want to be happy? If their goal was to achieve effectiveness, and they did, they're surely content. If they wanted personal happiness, and ended up being effective instead, they failed. Why is happiness the ultimate goal? Isn't happiness overrated?

  7. #27
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elementaltale View Post
    And she will lose all of that when she is dead.

    Death is the great equalizer. It is kind of like a person who rushes to the stop sign while another goes at a slower pace. In both cases one thing is very clear...

    You will both have to stop eventually.

    So on the grand scheme of things everything she has is rotted and dead, time simply has not caught up with it yet.


    As one person said, "He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless still dead."
    That's an interesting view point...

    A question for you:
    If everybody dies sooner or later... why live? Why not die now? You'll be dead eventually.

    I have a friend who told me the point of life is the experience. Whether the experience is enjoyable, worthwhile or not is as Nadir said highly subjective. Since different people would value different things.

    If a person for some strange reason is happiest owning the most toys, and feels a sense of accomplishment in doing that. Then that's his beliefs. We have the right to think maybe he's far too superficial and is missing out on "true happiness". But in the end that's based on our judgmental values... who knows, maybe accumulation of wealth really is the thing for him.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    That's an interesting view point...

    A question for you:
    If everybody dies sooner or later... why live? Why not die now? You'll be dead eventually.

    I have a friend who told me the point of life is the experience. Whether the experience is enjoyable, worthwhile or not is as Nadir said highly subjective. Since different people would value different things.

    If a person for some strange reason is happiest owning the most toys, and feels a sense of accomplishment in doing that. Then that's his beliefs. We have the right to think maybe he's far too superficial and is missing out on "true happiness". But in the end that's based on our judgmental values... who knows, maybe accumulation of wealth really is the thing for him.

    The answer is simple...there is no reason from a physical standpoint why you should not or cannot die now.

    Even if you disappoint others in taking your life, they will die as well so your disappointing people is only temporary. On the grand scheme of things you or I make no difference.

    This is one of the reasons that rejecting the idea of God is something that we cannot afford to do. If God does not exist, then whatever you do is meaningless as all things that you do will end for you will not be there eventually to ensure their existance.

  9. #29
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elementaltale View Post
    The answer is simple...there is no reason from a physical standpoint why you should not or cannot die now.

    Even if you disappoint others in taking your life, they will die as well so your disappointing people is only temporary. On the grand scheme of things you or I make no difference.

    This is one of the reasons that rejecting the idea of God is something that we cannot afford to do. If God does not exist, then whatever you do is meaningless as all things that you do will end for you will not be there eventually to ensure their existance.
    One stupid question

    What makes you think that Gods existance is not pointless also?

  10. #30
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elementaltale View Post
    This is one of the reasons that rejecting the idea of God is something that we cannot afford to do. If God does not exist, then whatever you do is meaningless as all things that you do will end for you will not be there eventually to ensure their existance.
    This is not something so clear-cut as that. It might seem meaningless, or render everything else meaningless to you if you reject God, but that doesn't mean it does so for everyone. You might want to consider that most people that reject or are indecisive/indifferent about a divine power don't do it out of spite, but simply because they do not need such a concept to explain or provide meaning to life's phenomena and the way they live.
    Last edited by Nadir; 02-26-2009 at 09:58 AM. Reason: Better wording.
    Not really.

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