User Tag List

First 12

Results 11 to 18 of 18

  1. #11
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    MBTI
    GONE
    Posts
    9,051

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Abandoning Frames
    1. Submissive individuals will always lose frames.
    2. Individuals will abandon their frame during surges of empathy. (Talking to someone in grief, you will jump to see the world their way.)
    3. Individuals will abandon their frame when they are afraid to lose

    4. Individuals will abandon their frame when they just don't care

    You already stated it in the pick-up scenarios (btw, makes SO much sense now, those pick-up artists with schools are obvious NTs!)

    In early stages of relationships, dating, courtship, happens all the time. I've totally done it before. I say something, someone disagrees, and normally I would debate my point and enjoy doing so (because that's what I do). But instead I go, "Meh, I'm just trying to [get a friendly hug at the end of the night] so sure, I can let this go"

    So it was both that I was afraid of losing the desired outcome of the bigger picture and that I didn't care about defending my point.

    When this happens in relationships and courtship too much it's a bad sign. Especially when done against your better judgement.

    So conceding can definitely cost you footing if you do so unwillingly or unnaturally or because you are forced.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

    Johari/Nohari

  2. #12
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,027

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Another question:

    Can we come up with a model to predict what leads to a framing conflict? Is it simply a battle for dominance/power/resources? Extra points for flowcharts.
    Interesting. There is already a model. NLP. I think NLP was a good start, but I'm not so convinced it's as useful as some people claim.

    You're better off reading up on Milton Erickson. NLP is largely based on the work of Milton Erickson and Virginia Satir.

  3. #13
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Posts
    7,233

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    3. Individuals will abandon their frame when they are afraid to lose
    Interesting! I think this is definitely true, and it jives with the dominance stuff, too, since individuals who feel dominant in a dynamic aren't concerned about rejection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cze^2
    4. Individuals will abandon their frame when they just don't care
    Also interesting, because I think this depends on personality. I think some people - NTs? - would hold onto their frame because it's enjoyable, like how Kiersey says NTs take every opportunity to refine their ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by LostInNerSpace View Post
    Interesting. There is already a model. NLP. I think NLP was a good start, but I'm not so convinced it's as useful as some people claim. You're better off reading up on Milton Erickson. NLP is largely based on the work of Milton Erickson and Virginia Satir.
    I don't know that much about NLP, but I'll keep it in mind next time I'm at the bookstore. Can you, Lost, find this model off the web and post it here? (Please? )



    A few observations since yesterday:

    Framing only becomes relevant during a conflict.
    The person afraid to lose the frame will almost certainly lose the frame.

  4. #14
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    WRT the Obama/McCain debate - who won the election?

  5. #15
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Socionics
    ENTj
    Posts
    5,908

    Default

    I can't understand this concept
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  6. #16
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    2,967

    Default

    I'm think this evaluation of conversation and personal power is appropriate in some settings. In a social setting it becomes a mind game and can be a lose/lose situation.

    If the goal in a social conversation is to further one's understanding of the other while self-disclosing for their benefit, who triumphs is a hinderance to the goal.

    For me it is possible to enter into the paradigm the initiator choses and still maintain my own, perhaps opposing, world view. I would hope for the same from my conversationalist.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  7. #17
    Senior Member V Profane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    119

    Default

    A textbook demonstration on how not to frame (assuming they aren't lying about their intentions) can be found by studying the work of Matt Nisbet and Chris Mooney.
    "I'm being schooled in the class of V Profane. And it's a sad lesson." - PinkPiranha

  8. #18
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,027

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I don't know that much about NLP, but I'll keep it in mind next time I'm at the bookstore. Can you, Lost, find this model off the web and post it here? (Please? )
    NLP is touted as model building system. It's a collection of modeling techniques. I studied it for a while. I personally don't buy into it much anymore. There is some good stuff there. Some of it just goes too far. I heard Richard Bandler actually say people should go jogging in their minds to avoid polution. Presumably this is why he weights 300lbs. That was the point I walked away. And NLP practitioners seem to claim anything that works as validation of their system.

    This is an outstanding book:

    Amazon.com: Influence: Science and Practice (5th Edition): Robert B. Cialdini: Books

    I discovered it because it was recommended reading on an NLP site. The author mentions nothing of NLP. I've discovered a few books like that.

    This is another good example. This guy talks about "Mirroring for hypnotherapy" as an NLP technique:

    YouTube - Mirroring for hypnotherapy (an NLP technique)

    Are they now claiming hypnotherapy and mirroring as part of NLP?

Similar Threads

  1. Political conservatism, in-group loyalty, and moral integrity of the individual
    By SolitaryWalker in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 01-30-2013, 11:30 AM
  2. [NT] NT's, arguments and attitude to other NT's in debate
    By slowriot in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 12-08-2009, 12:18 PM
  3. [NT] NTs and the role in economy, law and politics
    By Lexlike in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 09-22-2008, 10:34 PM
  4. Geoff takes some pics in Nova Scotia and the Cabot Trail
    By Geoff in forum Home, Garden and Nature
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 12-31-2007, 08:46 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO