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  1. #41
    homo-loving sonovagun anii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    it's to the "original post" I was referring to.
    D'oh!

    I was hoping my grammatitardedness wouldn't show itself until much later!


  2. #42
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    ...This is how one of them finally decided to free herself from this clique. The backlash is already forming, I hope she can withstand.
    That is a letter I can see myself writing. Is she INTJ? Or INFJ?

  3. #43
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    I, too, am curious about how this has progressed.

  4. #44
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    I'm part of those unpleasant, confrontational, very T, goal oriented and self serving people.
    Yes, I'm pretty sure you are, just as I don't think you are the type to play mind games. This isn't bad though - it's just dependent on the task, the goal, the people... doesn't make them good or natural leaders but it also means those that are good leaders want to lead, making them even better. Mind you, ENTJs are not, in my experience, good collaborators. They try if they feel they need to but they... how do you say... like the top down approach a little to much. This can come across as unpleasant and so forth. I think it depends on a lot on environment.

    That, and too many ENTJs creates a hostile environment in which the line between unpleasant and "mind games" becomes blurry... rather like any concentration of type, although in different ways.

    Bullshit, I can only trust someone who has enough backbone to tell other people what he thinks. If you haven't got any enemies, that probably means you've never been honest to anyone.
    Yah, I hear this from the TJs all the time. I would throw bullshit back at you. There is nothing more unpleasant than a whole bunch of people with the same attitude fighting over corporate crumbs. This only works when you are in the position you wish to be - leadership - with followers. It only works when there is balance. That means other styles that you may not be comfortable with... Nothing quite like having a team in which every individual has an enemy. I've had that happen plenty too.

    Not to say that bitchy backstabby is a good style, but I find that the ENTJ leadership approach is pretty good at seeing things their way... sometimes their discomfort with other styles makes them more rigid than they should.

    You never know if an asshole or bitch will use some info to backstab you later.
    Well, as much as I agree in general, it is the TJs that I find most threatening in terms of backstabbing... not because it is in their nature exactly, but just because it is fairly common that they self-serve themselves. They help while you are helpful... the good ones will help a lot and may continue beyond that (ie: maintain a relationship). The bad ones use you, tend to take any credit that could of been shared and dump blame on their minions. I know them by the "victory at any cost" and "failure doesn't happen to me" attitude.

    Every side has these behaviours... every type does.

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    The e-mail is problematic because it seems to broach personal issues (gossiping during lunchtime and a refusal to be in someone's company). But again, it's hard to factor in the e-mail and say where to go from there without knowing the reporting structure and without knowing how the e-mail was received in AF's Catty Woman World.
    The danger here, which doesn't exist with men quite the same way, is that women are expected to get along. She isn't playing by their rules. It's bad either way... there are no "male" advantages and nnot "female" advantages to the approach she took. (ie: what I posted originally for the male, but also the removal from the pack in the female one is similar to "not playing the game" and opens her up for "female" isolation and retribution).

    However, that's why I'm curious what has happened. Every situation that I get to hear about helps me refine the strategy a little bit more.

  5. #45
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    That is a letter I can see myself writing. Is she INTJ? Or INFJ?
    LOL. Why do you think she must only be those two types? She's a textbook ISFJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I'm curious to know how this has progressed... any updates?
    I've written some updates in my blog thread. The Alpha Female actually moved to California not even two weeks ago. We think because she knew she was leaving, she felt comfortable being extra caustic to my friend.

    Every office has a departmental mule. They do the difficult work no one else wants to do because they're either stuck in a position where they have to (my friend is the departmental admin assistant as well as the executive assistant to the director) or they're a pushover who doesn't know how to tell people NO. Unfortunately, my friend is a little of both of these. She doesn't want people to think she's incompetent or that the work is too difficult for her because she fears that will affect her standing with the director. She prides herself on the fact that she can do all these things, but they come at a high price. She's very stressed out, doesn't take time off from work to recuperate because if she takes a week vacation all the work does is pile up on her, and is underpaid. There's no relief.

    It's sad to say but I've told her she shouldn't be so damn efficient. Once people see that you're reliable, work quickly, and you do good work they start to think that they can continue to give you projects. This usually is a good thing, in that people will start eyeing you for a promotion, but since there are a lot of older people with nice cushy paychecks and wonderful views of the Capital in my office, there's not much room for upward mobility unless they leave. Another person in her department has two assistants working under her and yet she gives my friend their work because she does a better job. And when my friend told her that she couldn't do a certain project you know what she did? She sent an email to my friend about the project and CC'ed my friend's boss as some kind of blackmail! Talk about intimidation!

    Two other people have "asked" her to write up the minutes for committees that they are the staff liaison for. I'm also a staff liaison and we're responsible for writing our committee's minutes. Yet they give it to her, tell her they need it in X amount of time and if she doesn't get it to the per their specification, the emails start getting CC'ed to the boss. I don't know if the boss is oblivious as well, doesn't care, or can't deal with it right now. I've told her to go to her boss and let him fight for her. Because part of her job description is "other duties as assigned," she's really caught between a rock and a hard place. She needs her boss to tell the other people in the department to get their assistants to to the work or give her enough time to get the work done.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I highly suggest that idealism be left behind... accept that is how things work and work back from there. Situations like this defy our normal social conditioning... it's all around us but we choose to ignore it for the comfort of our own mind.

    For general stuff, I'd read "The 48 Laws of Power". The reality is that every situation is different... it's the ability to change approaches and the knowledge base/experience that will help, not a ruleset.
    So very true. I don't know how people have managed to avoid this in an office environment unless they're completely oblivious. Even if you don't get involved, you don't notice the politicking happening to others? And this is relatively lightweight, we're not even corporate. "The 48 Laws of Power" is my handbook. I felt so stupid and naive after reading that book. I dogeared many pages and broke it out during the early part of this just to help my friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    So, protean, you need to start seeing it as a GAME and don't let it get to you. See it as just play. Make fun of them and be sarcastic when you notice elements of the GAME if it can alleviate the pressure. Be as disagreeable as you can while remaining polite and not making mistakes. That is the key. And, never, never, ever, get openly angry or blow up. Keep your cool at all times or they will play the victims. Remember, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger so all this is a great learning experience for you and once you get the skills to cope with people like this... you'll be much harder to deal with.
    Yes, that's how I've kept them off me to a certain extent because I'm guilty by association. It is a little different because this is mostly women and there's only so far that I'm willing to go myself.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  6. #46
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    LOL. Why do you think she must only be those two types? She's a textbook ISFJ.
    I did not think she must only be one of those two types. The letter did not give enough information to determine someone's MB type. I was only asking because as I said, I could have written that exact letter, so I was curious if she was the same type as me. I am an INTJ/INFJ.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Yes, I'm pretty sure you are, just as I don't think you are the type to play mind games.
    In a sense yes, but the category "unpleasant, confrontational, very T, goal oriented and self serving people" is exagerated because all this is task focused... So these people may very well seem confrontational, self-serving and unpleasant from a relational point of view when they focus on the actual work. It's like an undesired byproduct of their (over)rationality.

    In reality, it says nothing about how they are with people in general... and they may very well be completely the opposite in personal terms. One guy I respect alot is just this way... He's nice, pleasant, peaceful and polite with people but when he's focused on work he may comes off inadvertently as the category you described.

  8. #48
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    This makes me think of something else.

    When the subject of game-playing comes up, most people vehemently deny that they are a game player and if they do admit to it, it's because they're responding or entering games already in progress. On a macro level (offices, politics, etc.) game playing is unavoidable. Either sink, swim, or opt out.

    On a micro level, especially in interpersonal relationships, gameplaying of some form regularly enter the scene. Once again, people deny that they do it, but it's so commonplace that someone has to be initiating the game.

    Is anyone willing to admit to starting a game? If so why do you do it? Does this arise out of insecurity, entertainment, other reasons? I won't think you're a bad person if you do.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  9. #49
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Is anyone willing to admit to starting a game? If so why do you do it? Does this arise out of insecurity, entertainment, other reasons? I won't think you're a bad person if you do.
    Everyone plays... Every interaction is a game. Want work done? Want a raise? I freely admit I play - the question is how and why you play. The whole world runs on negotiation... friends, family, mates... enemies, work, home, school... We all compete all the time, we all cooperate all the time... and every single time we play a little game.

  10. #50
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    I'd get rid of any player as soon as I find out I want people who want to gain power through competence, not their relationships with others.
    Right. Good luck with that.

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