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  1. #11
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Well, I think that's a little harsh. A person shouldn't lose their job based on some clique's opinion, especially when they were supposedly friends. Too much emotion? She's having to admit to herself that her friends have been bullies and she was helping them, in addition to risking a long-standing friendship.
    You do me wrong! Right or wrong, that's the likely outcome from this situation. Do I think it is fair? No. But fair doesn't run the corporate world, and it sure doesn't rule "high school politics".

    The only chance she has now is to fight, to embrace the fight. From that email, I'd give that about a 5% chance. She'd have to set the alpha up and rip her down leading to an insecure "pack". At that point, the pack would divide loyalties up (social to one, political capital to the other) and she could exploit that, either nullifiying the methods the alpha would use or removing her directly.

    Otherwise, they will slowly sabotage her while increasing her social stress level. 6 months would be my projection, without considering factors like length of service, age, alternative employment.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    If I was in that woman's position, I would play. I don't manipulate people I care about (at least not intentionally). But when I work with assholes, especially people who act like they're in some sort of high school clique, it's game on! I always win.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #13
    Senior Member Lookin4theBestNU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara
    Was thinking the same thing, my closest friend is as tomboyish in attitude as you can get, which is perfect.
    Yes my best friend is a no nonsense ISTJ. She and I get along like perfectly.
    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby
    The only chance she has now is to fight, to embrace the fight. From that email, I'd give that about a 5% chance.
    Having played the game many times before I am going to have to agree. I think that email was the wrong way to go. I got mostly fear from it.
    "At points of clarity, I realize that my life on earth is meaningless, and that I am merely a pawn in a bigger game. A game I cannot possibly understand or have control of. Thankfully, before depression sets in, I drift back into my cloudy, bewildered daily routine." **Joel Patrick Warneke**

  4. #14
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Y'all, this well is deep.

    When I transferred departments from my old one, they were the first ones to reach out to me and be nice to me. I didn't know anyone on my floor and they were the people closest to my age group. Individually they are very nice people; buying cards and decorating cubes for birthdays, sending out funny emails all day, very congenial.

    When you finally get comfortable and feel like you can strike out on your own is when the problems begin. I started hanging out more and more with one of them because I felt like we could bond. We would eat lunch together without them. Like I said, I'm not in that department but my friend is. They're very strategic, the alpha female wants to make my friends life miserable at work. Once we were sitting at lunch (with them) and she said "your boyfriend must not love you that much if he bought you cubic zirconia." The people who didn't laughed had the food drop out of their mouths. She's criticized my friend's clothes, hair, eating habits, relationship ("he should marry you after three years") and everyone just laughs along. I'm surprised at the one who got away because I always thought she was a very high ranking official.

    We're trying to figure out a way to deal with this problem. It's not as easy as it looks. None of what she's doing is outright harassment, it's very subtle. And she says things in such a joking manner and so covertly that you have to be smooth replying to her, so you don't look like you're overreacting.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  5. #15
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    You do me wrong! Right or wrong, that's the likely outcome from this situation. Do I think it is fair? No. But fair doesn't run the corporate world, and it sure doesn't rule "high school politics".

    The only chance she has now is to fight, to embrace the fight. From that email, I'd give that about a 5% chance. She'd have to set the alpha up and rip her down leading to an insecure "pack". At that point, the pack would divide loyalties up (social to one, political capital to the other) and she could exploit that, either nullifiying the methods the alpha would use or removing her directly.

    Otherwise, they will slowly sabotage her while increasing her social stress level. 6 months would be my projection, without considering factors like length of service, age, alternative employment.
    I'm sorry ptgatsby, I misunderstood, it just sounded like you were criticizing, I didn't realize you were just assessing.

    Personally, I would have continued to associate with those people if I thought I could lose my job for not doing so, but would have tried to uncover something I could use to blackmail them into leaving me alone. I think she did the right thing morally, but the wrong thing if she wanted to retain her position.

  6. #16
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    We're trying to figure out a way to deal with this problem. It's not as easy as it looks. None of what she's doing is outright harassment, it's very subtle. And she says things in such a joking manner and so covertly that you have to be smooth replying to her, so you don't look like you're overreacting.
    Pretty standard, overall. This even happens in "men's" politics, though this subtle approach is normally a female tactic (it diffuses the attack enough that any attempt to come down hard will just let it reform after. Hey, that sounded very Tsu, didn't it?). The correct general strategy will involve transformation (change the battlegrounds so her defenses have no value) and negation (counterattack in sharper attacks to prevent pack mentality from overwhelming her).

    These are only two strategies that I see after that email.

    Change where you challenge her and smile through the rest. The normal one is that you are there for work - change the battlefield to that. Set the alpha up for professional punishment. Call her on everything she does late, everytime she causes you to come up short. Document it well. And smile through it all.

    The second requires taking her on her own turf. Find out what she is insecure about. Find her weaknesses. Practise lines that push them. Then start using them. Use them on her, use them on her friends.

    Any other solution would involve avoidance - change jobs, positions, etc.

    There is no nice solution, which is why I don't think she'll be able to come back after that email. It will require a very hostile attitude.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Lookin4theBestNU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proteamix
    We're trying to figure out a way to deal with this problem. It's not as easy as it looks. None of what she's doing is outright harassment, it's very subtle. And she says things in such a joking manner and so covertly that you have to be smooth replying to her, so you don't look like you're overreacting.
    It sounds to me like thinly veiled passive-aggression with a couple of ass-kissers in tow. I am not positive how I would respond but in the position of your friend it would likely be head-on. In your position (not directly working with her) and wanting to protect/comfort my friend it would likely take the form of passive-aggressive behaviors myself.


    Edit: In other words I would end up playing.
    "At points of clarity, I realize that my life on earth is meaningless, and that I am merely a pawn in a bigger game. A game I cannot possibly understand or have control of. Thankfully, before depression sets in, I drift back into my cloudy, bewildered daily routine." **Joel Patrick Warneke**

  8. #18
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Pretty standard, overall. This even happens in "men's" politics, though this subtle approach is normally a female tactic (it diffuses the attack enough that any attempt to come down hard will just let it reform after. Hey, that sounded very Tsu, didn't it?). The correct general strategy will involve transformation (change the battlegrounds so her defenses have no value) and negation (counterattack in sharper attacks to prevent pack mentality from overwhelming her).

    These are only two strategies that I see after that email.

    Change where you challenge her and smile through the rest. The normal one is that you are there for work - change the battlefield to that. Set the alpha up for professional punishment. Call her on everything she does late, everytime she causes you to come up short. Document it well. And smile through it all.

    The second requires taking her on her own turf. Find out what she is insecure about. Find her weaknesses. Practise lines that push them. Then start using them. Use them on her, use them on her friends.

    Any other solution would involve avoidance - change jobs, positions, etc.

    There is no nice solution, which is why I don't think she'll be able to come back after that email. It will require a very hostile attitude.
    I love exploiting the insecurities of people like that. I have too strong of a conscience to do it, most of the time. But in this particular situation, I would revel in the opportunity.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #19
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    I think there is a group of women like this at every office.

    If she has now become a target, this site might help give some advice.

  10. #20
    Senior Member niffer's Avatar
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    Lol! High school redux. Actually, we don't have crap like this in our high school. In my opinion, the biggest problem here is that if violence is used, then she'll get fired. Otherwise it would be over pretty quickly.
    sparkly sparkly rainbow excretions

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    if you like my avatar, it's because i took it myself! : D

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