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Differences between ESTP/ISTP and ENTJ

me_plus_one

New member
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
194
MBTI Type
ESTP
I am not that experienced with types... but I'd like to say something too.

During school, I had to work with an ENTJ (it's not a supossition, I actually tested him) on a long term project, which was the school magasine.

He totally thrived on being a chief, no matter how hard the work was. He was inflexible (well, in his mind, he was convinced that he was flexible and openminded) and such a bad people's person, despite the fact he was completely aware of how people thought of him because he talked to them like idiots. If they were not important to him, he didn't even bother to be nice. And that including members of our team.

He absolutely loved making plans and lists and to organize stuff. During this work, I was going crazy, he always asked for deadlines and lists, lists, lists :horor:

What is shocking is that yeah, he was very conceptual, but was simply unaware of how things really were. Just because he had granted a great importance to our project, he simply couldn't realize that for somebody else, it didn't matter...
 

FDG

pathwise dependent
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
5,903
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
7w8
I'm an ENTJ and not a big fan of lists. I think they are useful when there's a lot to do in a very short amount of time, so that nothing is forgotten. Otherwise, more freedom is generally much more productive.
 

me_plus_one

New member
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
194
MBTI Type
ESTP
I also know ENTJs that are laidback and cool, but probably that one was too hardcore for me :laugh:
 

BlueScreen

Fail 2.0
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
2,668
MBTI Type
YMCA
I also know ENTJs that are laidback and cool, but probably that one was too hardcore for me :laugh:

How laid back and cool? Like will an ENTJ or INTJ ever have a messy room? Or is this always a P thing?

I swear the person I'm figuring out holds most of the ENTJ characteristics, and approaches most things as a J, but has the laid back habits of a P.

Also what counts as theoretical? If someone can tell you everything about certain areas and how to approach them, what certain things depend on, pretty much an optimised version of the underlying theory is that NTJ? I don't have a really good idea of Te... Or is an STP likely get to this stuff too by just absorbing and analysing the right things as they go? ie. question is does a total command of underlying theory suggest N, even if theoretical discussion seems rare? Or is a clear knowledge of what depends on what in discussion, what theoretical is?
 

sonata

New member
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Messages
291
MBTI Type
iNtJ
Like will an ENTJ or INTJ ever have a messy room?

Yes.

Also what counts as theoretical? If someone can tell you everything about certain areas and how to approach them, what certain things depend on, pretty much an optimised version of the underlying theory is that NTJ? I don't have a really good idea of Te... Or is an STP likely get to this stuff too by just absorbing and analysing the right things as they go? ie. question is does a total command of underlying theory suggest N, even if theoretical discussion seems rare? Or is a clear knowledge of what depends on what in discussion, what theoretical is?

That could be either. Ns do not have a monopoly on theoretical thought, although a few of us seem to think so. :doh:

I think an NTJ would be more likely than an STP to diverge from the theory of "certain areas and how to approach them, what certain things depend on" and start discussing the theory of completely strange, abstract, and seemingly impractical things.
 

FDG

pathwise dependent
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
5,903
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
7w8
How laid back and cool? Like will an ENTJ or INTJ ever have a messy room? Or is this always a P thing?

I swear the person I'm figuring out holds most of the ENTJ characteristics, and approaches most things as a J, but has the laid back habits of a P.

I don't know if the person you are trying to categorize is an ENTJ, but I will tell you in which ways I am laid back and cool and in which ways I'm not.
Laid back:
- in unimportant areas of my life, I can be messy (ex. my closet)
- i don't care about leading people unless they specifically ask me
- i think people should live the way they want, i don't like to push upon the specific expectations
- i don't care when people don't respect deadlines, as long as it doesn't affect my paycheck

Not laid back:
- when asked to do something, I always do it right away. If people change their mind about the task, it's usually too late, since I've likely already finished
- i'm very punctual and rather intolerant of people being not punctual (say, more than 20 minutes late). I won't get pissed at them, but they will get a -1 in my "trust book"
- i don't handle well changes of plans, unless these plans were about very minor things (say, if to go ice skating or skiing). You could say I'm a bit inflexible once a decision has been reached

Also what counts as theoretical? If someone can tell you everything about certain areas and how to approach them, what certain things depend on, pretty much an optimised version of the underlying theory is that NTJ? I don't have a really good idea of Te... Or is an STP likely get to this stuff too by just absorbing and analysing the right things as they go? ie. question is does a total command of underlying theory suggest N, even if theoretical discussion seems rare? Or is a clear knowledge of what depends on what in discussion, what theoretical is?

Harder to tell. An ISTP or ESTP that has studied the theory could just as easily do what you are referring to.
 

me_plus_one

New member
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
194
MBTI Type
ESTP
How laid back and cool? Like will an ENTJ or INTJ ever have a messy room? Or is this always a P thing?

I swear the person I'm figuring out holds most of the ENTJ characteristics, and approaches most things as a J, but has the laid back habits of a P.

Yep, ENTJs with messy rooms, always, but always late, and willing to change plans.

About the theoretical part, I think an NTJ might be able to outline a conceptual model of something, meanwhile the STP might see how and why it might or might not work when implemented...
 

BlueScreen

Fail 2.0
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
2,668
MBTI Type
YMCA
Yep, ENTJs with messy rooms, always, but always late, and willing to change plans.

About the theoretical part, I think an NTJ might be able to outline a conceptual model of something, meanwhile the STP might see how and why it might or might not work when implemented...

STPs are pretty hands on yeh? In a girl though there is less playing with technical stuff, so how does it present?

Are STPs pretty self assured and assertive normally? Do they hold things like assertiveness to be a virtue?

And how does the NTJ theorising present? Is it way less abstract than an NTP seeing the Ni part? Like intuiting is less obvious to see? I notice when she is very certain on problems, she doesn't like me questioning or suggesting otherwise.

Is there anything cognitive that is a real give away? Even if it is subtle I'll realise it.

About the theoretical part, I think an NTJ might be able to outline a conceptual model of something, meanwhile the STP might see how and why it might or might not work when implemented...

So getting excited and telling me every fact on a science topic speaking constantly for an hour, and finding it amusing that someone will listen, would be more like which type?
 
G

garbage

Guest
STPs are pretty hands on yeh? In a girl though there is less playing with technical stuff, so how does it present?

I know a lot of ESTP saleswomen, which can be seen as "hands-on" concerning people. SP can manifest itself in detailed art, creativity, and decorating, too.. NTJ's are not normally bothered with that sort of thing.

Are STPs pretty self assured and assertive normally? Do they hold things like assertiveness to be a virtue?

Very assertive and outgoing, and they seem to like someone else challenging them in an assertive manner sometimes.. so I can see where they'd see that as a virtue.

And how does the NTJ theorising present? Is it way less abstract than an NTP seeing the Ni part? Like intuiting is less obvious to see?

NTJ is probably less abstract and more practical than NTP, as if the musing thoughts must serve some purpose. They're also usually directed and don't jump around vastly different topics as much.

I notice when she is very certain on problems, she doesn't like me questioning or suggesting otherwise.

This suggests J to me, but it could also be an STP's assertiveness manifesting itself.

Is there anything cognitive that is a real give away? Even if it is subtle I'll realise it.

More improvisation implies xSTP, more planning implies xNTJ.. but I guess that much is obvious.

So getting excited and telling me every fact on a science topic speaking constantly for an hour, and finding it amusing that someone will listen, would be more like which type?

xSTP could be looking for an audience in this case. If the discussion is detailed enough to last an hour and is one-sided, you're probably looking at ESTP behavior.
 

LeonardoLestat

New member
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Oct 18, 2008
Messages
131
MBTI Type
ENTJ
I'm an ENTJ and not a big fan of lists. I think they are useful when there's a lot to do in a very short amount of time, so that nothing is forgotten. Otherwise, more freedom is generally much more productive.

ESTJs make more lists than us ENTJs in general, but lists are unfortunately a necessity to clear things up when things get messy and chaotic.
Its one of my compulsive traits... sometimes I just gótta make a list :rules:
 

ChocolateMoose123

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Oct 4, 2008
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5,278
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Very assertive and outgoing, and they seem to like someone else challenging them in an assertive manner sometimes.. so I can see where they'd see that as a virtue.



This suggests J to me, but it could also be an STP's assertiveness manifesting itself.

I don't have a problem being assertive if I need to be. I definitely don't mind the trait in others as long as they don't push what I see as unnecessary rules or restrictions (or worse - value judgments! :steam: )on me. Recently, I have been described as "hardcore" by a couple of my acquaintances. Took me by surprise. They have never seen this assertive side of me. *shrug*

I'm currently seeing an ESTP and I think the way our mutual assertiveness/challenging nature plays off each other definitely helped spark an interest. It's kind of a rush. :devil:
 

Amargith

Hotel California
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
14,717
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4dw
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
They do appear quite alike. And I'm betting a lot of them have some form of enneagram 8 in them which is...kinda obvious and pretty recognizable in people, hence the similarities. It also explains to me why it is that I find both NTJs and STPs quite intriguing. According to MBTI, when looking at the functions..the STP-NFP thing doesn't make sense (though I believe it does for socionics?)

But I *have* found it harder to keep a connection going with STPs..there's a wall there often, and the conversations end more quickly. Not that that is such a problem, usually the mutual appreciation of each other stays. I don't know any irl, though, so it might be that if I had a chance of actually 'doing' stuff with them instead of conversing online, that that bond would express itself in another way.

NTJs tend to be quite comfortable with conversation and find it very enjoyable to hypothise, as long as the what-if things actually have value to implement later. Also, this only happens when they're taking a break from taking over the world, and time and schedule will be observed to return to that task accordingly (more prominent in ENTJs of course :D)
 

Poki

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
10,436
MBTI Type
STP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
The extent of my planning is asking which direction do I need to go. Put me in the middle of a subdivision tell me which direction the exit is and I will find it easily. I dont need directions. When transforming transformers, show the begin and end and I can figure it out.

In regard to theory, I read theory compare it to real life and adjust the theory accordingly. Learn a new theory, combine the two together to fit real life. What is percieved is what everything is adjusted to.

They do appear quite alike. And I'm betting a lot of them have some form of enneagram 8 in them which is...kinda obvious and pretty recognizable in people, hence the similarities. It also explains to me why it is that I find both NTJs and STPs quite intriguing. According to MBTI, when looking at the functions..the STP-NFP thing doesn't make sense (though I believe it does for socionics?)

But I *have* found it harder to keep a connection going with STPs..there's a wall there often, and the conversations end more quickly. Not that that is such a problem, usually the mutual appreciation of each other stays. I don't know any irl, though, so it might be that if I had a chance of actually 'doing' stuff with them instead of conversing online, that that bond would express itself in another way.

NTJs tend to be quite comfortable with conversation and find it very enjoyable to hypothise, as long as the what-if things actually have value to implement later. Also, this only happens when they're taking a break from taking over the world, and time and schedule will be observed to return to that task accordingly (more prominent in ENTJs of course :D)

ISTPs in life are alot different from online, we also have healthy and unhealthy ones. We are action people and we like to help people. So if you want to keep something going let us help you with whatever you need. I dont talk about action much, I would rather do it. Talk to me about something I have seen or experienced, that is not action based, and I will have alot to say. Actions are to be performed, perception is to be understood. Its the difference in Fe leading into Se vs Se leading into Ti.
 

iamathousandapples

New member
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
495
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
5w6
SPs and NTs are really different. :)

If she were an SP she would probably be indifferent to systems, control, organization, all that fun stuff. ENTJs are like....leaders. ESTPS seem to be neither leaders nor followers.

I have a hard time distinguishing between ISTP and ESTP though.

Although ISTPs are the most NT of all the SPs.
 
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