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  1. #1

    Default Avoiding arrogance AND anxious doubt...any tips?

    My relationship with my pride is a funny one.

    Pride is known as one of the deadly sins--I think for good reason.

    Pride can blind one to other possibilies: better alternatives to the options one has accepted, better explanations for what is hapining in one's world, better understanding of the basic facts, better POV fo particular aspects of reality, etc.

    But always thinking there is someone who is more knowledgable, more qualified, more cabable, more cometent, at whatever one's role is tiring, and can eventually hurt self-esteem.

    Still, with nearly 7 billion people on the planet, it seems also likely to be true.

    Not being certain (that is having doubt) that ones perspective is the one to keep, is the opposite of the pride to which I am refering.

    Anyway, how does one deal with this reality?

    Of not being closed minded due to pride, but not being anxious due to doubt?

    Or to put it more positively, to have doubt, but be calm about it?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  2. #2
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    I would agree. I'm very opinionated but never afraid to admit when I'm wrong, and never afraid to be wrong. I'm often wrong and I often admit I am wrong. It's no big deal. If someone shows me I am wrong, I update my thinking. It's an opportunity to learn. I find it's rare people will debate without their own pride getting in the way. I can't stand that kind of emotional exchange. This is why I enjoyed the debate on the existence of god.

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    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    Of course, sometimes my way of presenting things is almost certain to put people on the defensive. On such occasions I have the subtlety of a bull in a China shop. That's more a question of style than arrogance.

    This thread for example:

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...59-future.html

    I really had no interest in seriously debating this topic. Hence the Santa sarcasm. Almost gauranteed to put Reason on the defensive.

    Is it arrogant if I don't particularly care if people might see this as arrogant behavior? I do make the effort, when I think it's appropriate to do so.

  4. #4
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    My relationship with my pride is a funny one.

    Pride is known as one of the deadly sins--I think for good reason.

    Pride can blind one to other possibilies: better alternatives to the options one has accepted, better explanations for what is hapining in one's world, better understanding of the basic facts, better POV fo particular aspects of reality, etc.

    But always thinking there is someone who is more knowledgable, more qualified, more cabable, more cometent, at whatever one's role is tiring, and can eventually hurt self-esteem.

    Still, with nearly 7 billion people on the planet, it seems also likely to be true.

    Not being certain (that is having doubt) that ones perspective is the one to keep, is the opposite of the pride to which I am refering.

    Anyway, how does one deal with this reality?

    Of not being closed minded due to pride, but not being anxious due to doubt?

    Or to put it more positively, to have doubt, but be calm about it?
    Hey, Ygolo - how goes it? Well, hopes I!

    It is interesting when people home in on one particular trait and isolate this as a cause of concern.

    I've never believed it to be this simple. Negating "arrogance" seems strange; why not embrace humility?

    Arrogance as a trait I find upsetting. Upsetting that some idiot thinks he's better! When obviously he's not. I am /lol. I jest, of course.

    Equally I've known very arrogant (or egotistical?) characters that can talk the talk & walk the walk. But they have other, redeeming traits that make this less of an issue. And they are good company in the right doses.

    Rather adopt an ethos that works. It is the combination of traits that is definitive (maybe), not one that sticks out shouting, "cure me and you got it made".

    Does knowledge define worth; or lack of it? As an educated fellow I'm sure you'd concede there are a few things you don't know - even if your memory were actually capable of holding just the facts. Are you defined by this lack of knowledge or do you hang on to the bric-a-brac that gives you 1-up on the nesxt fellow?

    Does it really matter when they stick you in a coffin, anyway?

    All the best for 2009.

    Incidently, I found this on a site the other day: Ethos & Beliefs : History & Ethos : Royal Marines Home

  5. #5
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Hey, Ygolo - how goes it? Well, hopes I!

    It is interesting when people home in on one particular trait and isolate this as a cause of concern.

    I've never believed it to be this simple. Negating "arrogance" seems strange; why not embrace humility?

    Arrogance as a trait I find upsetting. Upsetting that some idiot thinks he's better! When obviously he's not. I am /lol. I jest, of course.

    Equally I've known very arrogant (or egotistical?) characters that can talk the talk & walk the walk. But they have other, redeeming traits that make this less of an issue. And they are good company in the right doses.

    Rather adopt an ethos that works. It is the combination of traits that is definitive (maybe), not one that sticks out shouting, "cure me and you got it made".

    Does knowledge define worth; or lack of it? As an educated fellow I'm sure you'd concede there are a few things you don't know - even if your memory were actually capable of holding just the facts. Are you defined by this lack of knowledge or do you hang on to the bric-a-brac that gives you 1-up on the nesxt fellow?

    Does it really matter when they stick you in a coffin, anyway?

    All the best for 2009.

    Incidently, I found this on a site the other day: Ethos & Beliefs : History & Ethos : Royal Marines Home
    I think you're right. The reason I don't have a lot of friend is because I tend to alienate them, often intentionally. I will do outrageous things and tell myself I just wanted to see how they would react. In reality, I don't even think I know why I do it.

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    This is something that I struggle with myself.

    Long and short of it, I've found that all I can do is maintain that my perspective is the correct one until I get information to the contrary. I learn and shape it naturally through experience, reading and studying, and conversing with others.

    Even if there's someone who's better than you at something, you're still a worthwhile human being.

    I'm sure I'll have more to say later on.

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    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Isn't pride a religious idea, and therefore something your religion would be best at helping you with?

  8. #8

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    I suppose I am reffereing to "closed minded certitude," which was a phrase coined on this forum regarding both INT types.

    But I am mainly interested in maintaining the necessary doubt without being anxious about the doubt.

    What are some techniques to achieve that?

    To think, really think, not just calculate, without worrying.

    An interesting thin about Ethos being about "what we do, and how we do it" is that it flies in the face of being a "human being not a human doing" and the idea of "unconditional infinite equal human worth."

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #9
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    But I am mainly interested in maintaining the necessary doubt without being anxious about the doubt.
    Why are you anxious; will such anxiety alter the outcome?

    Are you talking professionally? If you are involved in research, unexpected things are often good. Rarely bad.

    If you are a banker, however...

    Why worry about risk when there is none.

  10. #10
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Or to put it more positively, to have doubt, but be calm about it?
    Many people seek knowledge to attain certainty, but rather than being the goal of rational inquiry, it seems to me that certainty is more often a barrier to it. People are regularly certain of one thing or another, including that others, equally certain of opposing views, are mistaken. When such is noted, it should be clear that certainty offers no insurance against mistakes, and one would rather be uncertain and right than certain and wrong.

    It is an interesting quirk of much of modern philosophy that certainty, while being derided in a religious fanatic, is often the implicit goal of inquiry. Often it is said that one cannot be absolutely certain (usually because there is not enough evidence), and yet the goal of increasing certainty is retained. This, I think, is a mistake--a vestigial assumption carried over from old volumes on metaphysics and epistemology.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

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