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  1. #21
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Does it have so much to do with open-mindedness / uncertainty as it does for getting an accurate gauge on your skills and abilities?

    How does arrogance hamper with progress? Only if you're arrogant without substance to back up your attitude. Nobody grudges an arrogant genius... It goes with the position.

    Perhaps the two issues are being confused here. It's not so much arrogance as complacence that slows us down. After all, you can look down upon others and still see the need to better yourself...
    I had this thought on semantics as I was posting.

    I'm wondering if you didn't mean overconfidence, Ygolo. Having an unrealistic view of one's knowledge and ability. The question does address what you are able to do or know, for sure.

    That's why I believe it's important not to fall into the competition trap in regards to personal worth.

    Who has more money is one thing. That's an obvious tangible. But who is the more qualified/knowledgeable person is something else altogether. Impossible to have an accurate view of how you're doing in the personal values department if you try to measure anothers' worth or have them measure you against their own values system. You know how much we dislike having others size us up and how often we feel that they are incorrect. Works both ways.

    You don't want to go there even though it's an irresistible part of our nature as social animals. You'll always come up lacking somewhere down the line. Not good for your self esteem to compare yourself to others. Gonna tip too far one way or the other. Leaves you constantly re-evaluating your comparative worth. See what I'm saying?

    Measure yourself by your own skills and abilities and you don't have to lose track everytime someone new comes along once you can more accurately judge your potential.

    An afterthought in regards to the Wall Street suicides which I'm guessing we'll see more of in time. Put all your eggs in the "Who has more money?" game and what happens should you lose it? Apparently for some people life is no longer worth living. Get what I'm saying about personal qualities? You need many measures to create a life worth living.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I understand what you, and may others are getting at. It's good if you can live anxiety free that way.

    But in the example of your car, there are the original desinger who did have to worry about all sorts of stuff. It was then built on an assembly line where they had to worry about defects. Then these cars were mass produced, so that people like us don't have to worry too much about these things. But when your perspective changes, it is hard not to worry.

    I know an Air Force captain, who hates flying because he knows too much about planes.

    I like the idea of not judging my own perspective. But, sometimes, I feel obliged to hold that perspective together, despite there being a constant onslaught against it. There is often a need to justify my perspective on things, because people usually only understand a small fraction of what I am trying to relate.
    I hold my perspective together, too, because I need it and I enjoy it. And even if nobody agrees with it or understands it, it's really not that big of a deal. We connect on the things that really matter. We're all human. We're really not that different. Nothing is. We are one.

    Looking for something more practical?
    "When a resolute young fellow steps up the great bully, the world, and takes him boldly by the beard, he is often surprised to find that it comes off in his hand, and that it was only tied on to scare away the timid adventurers." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

  3. #23
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I like the idea of not judging my own perspective. But, sometimes, I feel obliged to hold that perspective together, despite there being a constant onslaught against it. There is often a need to justify my perspective on things, because people usually only understand a small fraction of what I am trying to relate.
    Yes. I know exactly what you're talking about. I avoid saying certain thiings because I don't feel some people have enough perspective to understand my perspective. That's not arrogance.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    So. Since your last post I'm not sure if your anxiety is due to worrying about making mistakes or being wrong.
    Or whether it's worry about what could go wrong and accidents.
    Or whether it's biochemical like too much caffeine, etc.
    Or if it's a bother to not feel understood by others.

    Any and all of the above are bothersome. And any and all of the above will happen.

    So is it the weight that you put on any of those things happening? Because they do and will. So maybe your focus could be on learning that you have the ability to deal with any of the above?

    The question would be, I suppose, the degree of anxiety you have when you are not swinging into what you've called "arrogance."
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    So. Since your last post I'm not sure if your anxiety is due to worrying about making mistakes or being wrong.
    Or whether it's worry about what could go wrong and accidents.
    Or whether it's biochemical like too much caffeine, etc.
    Or if it's a bother to not feel understood by others.

    Any and all of the above are bothersome. And any and all of the above will happen.

    So is it the weight that you put on any of those things happening? Because they do and will. So maybe your focus could be on learning that you have the ability to deal with any of the above?

    The question would be, I suppose, the degree of anxiety you have when you are not swinging into what you've called "arrogance."
    OK. I was hoping more peoplel had experienced what I had talked about, but it seems I need to provide more context/detail.

    You know how most kids ask "Why is the sky blue?" Well, I did too. But when they gave the "scientific" answer, I then asked "OK. Then why is the sky not violet?" At which point, I was called a "smart alec" and was told to why I don't ask why the "sky is not golden rod, or chartruse?" But those colors didn't specifically deal with the reason given for whay the sky is blue.

    I had disagreements with teachers quite often. Especially in science class. But also when we had which one of these things don't belong questions in English class--I could come up with a reason for whay each of the four words in turn was the one that doesn't belong.

    When I read the Lion, Witch, and Wordrobe in 3rd grade, I remember getting downright angry when I read the old professor's "Logic Lesson" and people looking at me like I was some sort of freak.

    As I grew up, I learned that I had to learn what the "majority viewpoint" was for my own survival, even if I disagreed with it. But figuring out the majority view point is always a guessing game, and it is hard to actually know what it is.

    In addition, I often want to articulate my own view-point, and it is hard to do in the cacophany of majority opinion around.

    This is the source of my anxiety--what perspective (from a practical standpoint) do I take at what time?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  6. #26
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Okay. Gotcha! I get it now.

    Gotta say that sounds pretty INFP to me and I can strongly identify with it. In the world of possibilities we are great conversationlists about what is foreign to others. When I was young I was continuously stumbling into this sort of thing. I still do but I suppose I've just grown accustomed to it and say to myself, "Oh yeah, there THAT was again." Hee.

    What to say? If you expand your world there will be an increasing number of people who "get" what you're saying and you learn to let go of others when you can't make yourself understood.

    It just isn't going to go the way which is the easiest for us. Learn the fine art of shrugging at yourself?

    I don't know what else to say to this one. Keep affirming yourself while you stay open to new ideas, do the best you can and learn to be satisfied with what is.

    Edit: Are you plagued by perfectionism?
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Okay. Gotcha! I get it now.

    Gotta say that sounds pretty INFP to me and I can strongly identify with it. In the world of possibilities we are great conversationlists about what is foreign to others. When I was young I was continuously stumbling into this sort of thing. I still do but I suppose I've just grown accustomed to it and say to myself, "Oh yeah, there THAT was again." Hee.

    What to say? If you expand your world there will be an increasing number of people who "get" what you're saying and you learn to let go of others when you can't make yourself understood.

    It just isn't going to go the way which is the easiest for us. Learn the fine art of shrugging at yourself?

    I don't know what else to say to this one. Keep affirming yourself while you stay open to new ideas, do the best you can and learn to be satisfied with what is.

    Edit: Are you plagued by perfectionism?
    I am curious as to why it sounds INFP.

    Anyway, its good to know it gets better.

    As for perfectionism, I don't think I am, but I have been asked that enough that I wonder.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  8. #28
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Well, when you asked why the sky was blue what you were conceiving was that it could just as easily be some other color. But others, thinking Sensors here, thought the question was "What makes the blue tint of the sky?" The thought of some other color didn't occur to them without you stating it. You were conceiving of a possibility which didn't enter into their perspective. And that just sounds like the way my mom described my questions. And it is also the kind of frustration I often had in science classes, etc.

    It's actually more of a spiritual question than a science question. And your desciption of trying to figure out what "language" the group you're with is speaking sounds very familiar to me. I often leave things out in my statements which seem obvious to me but the omission of which confuses others.

    And, maybe because it happens so often to us, we INFPs grow pretty cautious and easily frustrated by its occurrence.

    Perfectionism is a hazard of the INFP type. We like things to be "nice." Perfect the way we just know they could be if the world of people and physical things would only cooperate. :steam: Heh.

    I dunno. If you are a possibility seer it probably doesn't occur to you that you may be expecting an awfully lot of yourself.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Well, when you asked why the sky was blue what you were conceiving was that it could just as easily be some other color. But others, thinking Sensors here, thought the question was "What makes the blue tint of the sky?" The thought of some other color didn't occur to them without you stating it. You were conceiving of a possibility which didn't enter into their perspective. And that just sounds like the way my mom described my questions. And it is also the kind of frustration I often had in science classes, etc.

    It's actually more of a spiritual question than a science question. And your desciption of trying to figure out what "language" the group you're with is speaking sounds very familiar to me. I often leave things out in my statements which seem obvious to me but the omission of which confuses others.
    It's interesting how we all read into particular situations.

    I did mean it as a science question.

    The usual explanation for why the sky is blue because shorter wavelenghts are scattered and we see those wavelenghts reflected back to us. So since violet is a shorter wavelength still, why was the sky not violet? I could understand not ultra-violet because we couldn't see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    And, maybe because it happens so often to us, we INFPs grow pretty cautious and easily frustrated by its occurrence.

    Perfectionism is a hazard of the INFP type. We like things to be "nice." Perfect the way we just know they could be if the world of people and physical things would only cooperate. :steam: Heh.

    I dunno. If you are a possibility seer it probably doesn't occur to you that you may be expecting an awfully lot of yourself.
    I suppose I do see potential for improvements everyehere.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  10. #30
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I'm not sure how skills play a role in this. I am mainly talking about perspective.

    Also, geniuses are bregudged quite often, arrogant or not.

    B. Fuller was moments away from drowning himself. Newton had a nervous break dewn before writing the Principia, a falure as a farmer, and a mediocre student; as an adult he spent more time on Alchemy than Physics, and was taken in by the Tulip Bulb scheme, and generally dislike by many of his peers. Einstein lectured to empty rooms, and was not regarded as much od a scientist till his theories proved true. Darwin was thought by his father to be a failure at life.
    I was referring to self evaluation... how closely our perception to self reflects reality. Having proud in our work (and more or less in more skills) is a good thing to have. It becomes a problem when we're complacence... (which I doubt you would) or that our perception is false. That is we are "arrogant", believing self is better than others, when in fact we are not. That will then lead to lofting.

    The reverse case is anxiety and doubt of one's abilities. That is we see ourselves as being less than what we're actually capable of. Therefore we always go for the low hanging fruits. Never truly do we reach our potentials.

    That's what I mean by the importance of having an accurate gauge on our abilities.

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