Random thoughts on Intuition and Sensing

[frenchkiss]

Right, thank you, I'm not saying Sensors don't make associations. I'm saying that noticing beauty and making associations is not related to having a preference for Intuition, as the OP apparently wants to believe.

Oh, I know. I was agreeing with you.

 

[BlueScreen]

In fact, I believe Monet was almost certainly an ISFP, NOT an "N" (read a biography of him if you doubt that.)

Monet was definitely a senser. Intuitives generally don't have the sort of accuracy he had. And some of the subtle ones where there are just slight changes in whites and stuff says he was almost definitely Se. My ISTP sister introduced me to art in most of its forms, so there goes anything about intuition or feeling also.

I think different types might have their own ways of appreciating each type of art or beauty, but beauty is global. All types live in the world, and no type is oblivious to it. They all appreciate it and capture it in their own way. We had a really strange sunset last week. And my mother INFJ pointed it out. I looked at it and thought that is awesome like war of the worlds or something, and got my camera and sat outside watching. My younger sister who is ISFP came out and sat on the grass and watched, my dad who is INTP came out to look too. Some of the NT types have an amazing affiliation with art and nature..

 

[The Ü™]

Sensitivity to aesthetics and beauty, as well as comfort and pleasure are all in the S domain. Ns are often chronically unaware of these things.

Monet was likely an Si type, as well as Van Gogh and other impressionists. ISFPs, more specifically.

 

[nolla]

I'm saying that it's not an indicator of preference. I'm astonished at how many people believe that doing sensory activities indicates a preference for intuition. It's ridiculous. It's as if I went around saying that my spiritual life and my ability to talk about abstract topics is proof of a preference for Sensing.

Ok, this makes more sense. Before you were saying that appreciating nature has nothing to do with intuition. I think that you and me, we see different things in nature and appreciate some of them. So, from your pov, it can be (almost) pure sensing, while I might have a bit different way. The thing is, you don't know what I see, and I don't know what you see.

If you really and truly don't understand what's so offensive, try empathizing with ISFPs. Then notice how much you like being told you're incapable of the very things that you most certainly CAN do and DO do.

Well, from what I had read, it was obvious that the artistic skills are very much a SP thing. I was only talking about how intuition might be a part of this appreciation in different types, and why not in SPs too.

Actually, you triggered this when you said that intuition cannot play any part in it. This was the only reason I posted in here. So. From my point of view, your frustration with the situation on this board made you to make an overstatement, and I pointed out that this is not true. You got mad at me, or at least it seemed like that when you quoted me and wrote angry remarks after the quotes. At this point I was so much concerned with you misunderstanding my posts that I had no time to think it from your perspective. Besides, I thought that it is almost like a fact that SPs are the artistic type, so I didn't think it would be offensive to consider that some forms of artistic appreciation come from intuition. That is how I interpreted the OP.

 

[BlueScreen]

Sensitivity to aesthetics and beauty, as well as comfort and pleasure are all in the S domain. Ns are often chronically unaware of these things.

Monet was likely an Si type, as well as Van Gogh and other impressionists. ISFps, more specifically.

ISFPs are Fi Se. But yeah they are an introverted type with a sensing preference. My only reason to doubt Monet being an ISFP is that he always drew scenery. Whereas my younger sister who is ISFP often draws animals as a main part of the painting, or has a focus on a key object in the painting. I would've expected at least one animal painting, or at least some living creatures in there if he was ISFP. My ISTP older sister paints landscapes and colours and nature though. So I'm guessing he was an Se of some type.

Only thing I can say about Van Gogh was Fi. So ISFP or INFP. Just the way he captured faces and the world. The strange style suggests maybe INFP though. Art wise NFPs tend to work with a complex use of a simple style.

 

[The Ü™]

ISFPs are Fi Se. But yeah they are an introverted type with a sensing preference.

Screw functional order.

Jung described Si as the aesthete and Fi as the religious type.

Stereotypically, ISxP is associated with the artist/craftsman, and IxFJ with the religious nuts or moralists.

 

[BlueScreen]

Screw functional order.

Jung described Si as the aesthete and Fi as the religious type.

Stereotypically, ISxP is associated with the artist/craftsman, and IxFJ with the religious nuts or moralists.

Quite true. In terms of functions though, one type of feeling is obviously shared between the XXFPs, and a different type of feeling is shared between the XXFJs. It is even quite clearly visible in this thread. Function wise ISxP share an extroverted sensing function also, which seems to have some similarities to extroverted intuition in terms of being more aware of the external world. So you can't discount functions as making no sense here.

Obviously Jung was a smart guy who had the original theory, but unless you are like the religious ones, you are allowed to use other things that have been realised since .

 

[The Ü™]

No, extroverts direct their energy towards the external world. But Ns remain aware of their intuitions, while Ss remain aware of their physical environment.

 

[BlueScreen]

Yeh, I probably chose words wrongly. I meant in terms of extraverted sensers being able to tell small differences in colour, and predict time insanely accurately and stuff in the external world. And extroverted intuitives linking everything in the external world. Like walk into a room and intuitively know where things lead and where they are at. I was just saying there are introverted and extroverted types that both possess these traits, so it didn't seem to be a case of introversion or extroversion, rather functions.

 

[INTJMom]

I was visiting my mother (who is an iNtuitive type) the other day for breakfast, and on the way out she commented on how beautiful the day was.

"Do you see the trees and the sky? It's like a monet or something." She said.

Despite it being cold, rainy, and foggy, I could totally relate to what she was saying. I have deeply felt this way on many an occasion, where beauty seems to inspire your imagination etc... My father (ESTJ), on the other hand, simply replied:


"Mmhmm, right. Well, see you later," in a rather dismissive tone, and left for work.


She told me later that, at the office, she commented on the same thing with her boss and good friend (SJ, I suspect) along with her husband, a philosophy professor (NT, I believe).

Her boss smiled somewhat condescendingly, and uttered a quick "Whatever," while the professor's eyes lit up:


"Ahh, exactly! I know exactly what you mean."



The point of this story: This sounds, to me at least, like an example of the iNtuitive way of thinking clashing with the world of the Sensor's. For example, my dad (ESTJ) would look out the window and think about the driving conditions, how cold it was, which coat he would use, and whether or not he would have to leave early for work, due to the fog. Something along those lines. However, this morning my mother (ENFP) saw something way beyond what was actually there, via her imagination/creativity.

I'm not trying to absolutize anything here, for I'm sure Sensors have thoughts like these too, nor am I saying one type is better than the other, but in general:

Do any iNtuitive types relate at all to this? Or have this kind of response from Sensors when you open up to them?

What about you Sensors?

Every so often my ISTP husband will humor me, but my two S children usually don't.

It is nice when I find someone who enjoys the beauty of nature just as much as I do.

 

[EJCC]

I really can't stomach anyone who believes that in order to appreciate art, you have to prefer intuition. It's offensive and untrue. Anyone can appreciate art, and noticing "Monet-ness" in the world around you does not equal having a preference for intuition.

You are absolutely right. SPs have just as much appreciation for physical beauty as any N does (or even more so). I think the example mentioned in the OP was more relating to SJ than simply S.

After all (and I'm sorry to say this), I've definitely felt like that ESTJ before. My NF mom always gets so moved by sunsets and such, and although I'm never as rude as that ESTJ* (i.e. I usually say "Yeah, that really is beautiful", NOT "whatever"), my appreciation is not indefinite as hers. But I STILL APPRECIATE BEAUTY (contrary to popular belief about my type)! I love looking at the night sky, and I enjoy art galleries as much as an N would. It's just that... I don't love it enough to stare at that stuff for hours, you know? I want to be getting stuff done!

*EDIT - I'm not that rude in that particular situation.

 

[frenchkiss]

Every so often my ISTP husband will humor me, but my two S children usually don't.

It is nice when I find someone who enjoys the beauty of nature just as much as I do.

My ISTJ boyfriend is way more into nature than I am. One of his favorite things to do is sit in the backyard and watch the squirrels run around in the trees - not really my idea of a great time.

 

[The Ü™]

I still would love to know where anyone would get the idea that Ns are sensitive to beauty. By definition, they're likely oblivious to it.

 

[Anja]

Here's a sample of a typical conversation between my ISTJ husband and me which took place last night after a lovely snowfall.

"Look out the kitchen window."

"Oh. The snow is really getting high. I guess that means I'll be running the snowblower tomorrow."

"Yes, it is. Look. Just look at that!"

Yeah. It's damn cold out. I think I'll go down and put a couple more logs in the stove."

And off he goes leaving me dreamily standing at the window watching the blue and purple shadows play on the sparkling snow. Sigh.

Can he see that? Oh yes. He has a fine eye for color, proportion and beauty in nature. But it's not the most important thing on his list of many things to do.

I feed my spirit; he feeds the woodstove. We feed each other.

 

[placebo]

WTH, anyone in the world can appreciate beauty, S or N. It's how they interpret it, perceive it, and the ultimate connections and relations they get that come from appreciating the beauty that might mark a difference between S and N. I think it really depends on the person and how significant they feel beauty is a part of their lives. This can apply to many S artists and appreciators of art, who can appreciate sensory things probably very deeply for their aesthetic appeal, and to N artists and appreciators of art, who can find deep meaning in a piece of work and the message or emotion the artist might be trying to convey.

 

[The Ü™]

Interpreting is T or F.

S is absorbed in the physical world while the N is absorbed in internal visions (yes, those are called intuitions), each from perspectives of either the extroverted or introverted attitude.

No interpretation is involved in either of the irrational functions -- interpretation implies rational, looking for closure in one way or another.

 

[placebo]

Interpreting is T or F.

S is absorbed in the physical world while the N is absorbed in internal visions (yes, those are called intuitions), each from perspectives of either the extroverted or introverted attitude.

No interpretation is involved in either of the irrational functions -- interpretation implies rational, looking for closure in one way or another.

Well I meant, interpretation of it as a aesthetic, sensory thing, like the physical aspects of the work (S), or interpretation of it as something symbolic and internal (N). I guess I'm sloppy in the use of the word. I'm not very aware of what it implies (in this case, rational). My main point is that, both S and N types can appreciate beauty--to me, which type it is, intuitor or sensor, seems irrelevant. I don't really understand the argument that either one can't.

 

[nozflubber]

This whole thread points out the problem with MBTI: You can attribute the exact same thing to any function regardless of what type you are.

Y'all should really stop thinking these things like "oh what an SP moment for me" or "oh, I'm so intuitive to be staring at this William Blake painting and getting it". That's taking it too far imo

 

[Gauche]

I would say something on that problem with S vs. N you guys have had.

IMO, sensors could perceive beauty the very same as intuitors. Maybe even better. But.. I mean perceive in cognitive way. If you look at Mona Lisa, both sensor and intuitor tell you it is beautiful. Both see that strange smile and interesting face, maybe S see it even more precisely, and it's equally beautiful for both. BUT.. what is to say, N will connect this inside his head to something, and internally, the painting suddenly takes "the meaning". For N, there's something deep and strange within the painting, and it means something for him, something that is not visible in the bare painting, but his N came here to create it. Sensors see and appreciate beauty for its own sake.

So I'm not saying sensors are worse in appreciating beauty or what, perhaps they are better, they could have better feeling for art at all. They appreciate beauty for it's own sake.
Intuitors on the other hand see "the meaning" in every piece of art. Maybe they even don't notice subleties in the artwork, as sensors do, but inside, the artwork unexplainably gain a deep, fatal meanig. Probably, by no means the same as author intended to convey.

 

[sarah]

Ok, this makes more sense. Before you were saying that appreciating nature has nothing to do with intuition. I think that you and me, we see different things in nature and appreciate some of them. So, from your pov, it can be (almost) pure sensing, while I might have a bit different way. The thing is, you don't know what I see, and I don't know what you see.

Are you saying that if you look outside your window and notice what's out there, you're not using your senses? How is that possible? Or are we just talking about an imaginary scene that exists only in your mind? I'd say that if you look around you and notice physical reality, you most ceratinly are using your senses to do so (Extraverted Sensing). If you then liken what you're seeing to a style of painting you've seen in the past, then you're using Introverted Sensing.

There's nothing wrong with Intuitives using their senses. In fact, everyone uses all 8 functions in a basic sort of way all the time. For INFPs, Si is the tertiary function, which gets developed usually sometime in a person's teenage years. If you're beyond being a teenager, then chances are you're developing it, and you enjoy using it. (and yes, that also translates into the people who prefer Sensing also using their Intuition all the time too -- nobody has a monopoly on any one function.)

What I don't understand is why people here are viewing the two Sensing functions (Se or Si) as Intuition functions, or functions that only a person who prefers Intuition has access to. Surely it stands to reason that if you prefer Sensing, then you're probably quite good at using either Se or Si.

It seems obvious also from the responses here that noticing and appreciating beauty is not type-related. People of all types do that. And also, it seems obvious that the people who have to do all the work on a snowy or rainy day (such as driving in bad weather conditions or shovelling and stoking fires) are going to be more likely to make a few mild gripes about the weather rather than dreamily rhapsodize over its' beauty. I suspect that everyone here would probably be talking less about how magical and meaningful the snow or the fog is if they were the person having to drive in it or develop sore muscles shovelling it several times a day.

We had a huge snowstorm last night where I live. My NF husband was the one who went outside to shovel. I haven't been outside yet, but I've made several commments about it, and he agreed with me that it's quite beautiful. My point is that everyone who has an apprciation for beauty can marvel at nature and liken what they're seeing to things they've seen and appreciated before, and it doesn't take being a certain type or temperament to have an interest in doing that.

I didn't mean this to be such an argument -- I'm sorry for being so vehement yesterday, but physical beauty (especially in nature) is something I feel passionate about, and I am astounded by anyone who thinks that my type prefereces prevent me from appreciating it.