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  1. #51
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    I will do a little experiment.
    I have taken one very old post from one member so that I can translate it.
    The reason why I am choosing romantic post is because it is simple but complex from the position of grammar.
    Also I would not mind if others translate this to their native language.
    I have deleted some personal information but the post is almost intact.
    Personally I can translate this to Croatian directy so translation will be distored but more correct.



    Ok, see here's the deal.... *sigh* Didn't expect to go into this but what the hell....

    I was really really interested in this girl about some time ago. We went a couple times. She broke it off with me, saying that she felt sorry for me because, if we started something serious, I'd be stuck with someone who could communicate on the same level I'm used to (apparently she had some emotional baggage).

    So she ended it. I was really sad but respected her feelings and tried to bury me feelings for her by avoiding her. Well.... apparently I wasn't doing something/reading something right because she calls me out one night and says that she wished I had hung in there for her and persisted in pursuing her.

    And how was I supposed to get that??

    So we end up giving it a second shot. During our time off I had set up a meeting with a friend of mine. A girl who had become really good friends with our family. My parents love her dearly and think of her as a daughter. So I tell my SO that I had made plans to visit this girl. I was going to go visit her, stay at her place one night and come back the next day. She also lived with her mom, older brother, and sister. So it's not like it'd be just us two.

    So. My sort of-girlfriend says, 'fine go. I won't stop you.' I told her I wouldn't go if she didn't want me to but that I told her about my visit so that I'd be up front with her. She insisted, 'Go'. Three days later she breaks up with me again, saying that she has no feelings for me.

    All that after she was the one that wanted to get back together??? I just don't get it at all. So here I am, a few years later, still trying to figure out what happened. That's why I started this thread.

    So here is how I actually "sound".


    U redu, evo u ?emu je stvar... *uzdah*. Nisam o?ekivao u?i u ovo ali zašto ne?

    Bio sam zaista zainteresiran u ovu curu prije nekog vremena. Izašli smo par puta. Prekinula je s menom, rekavši da joj je žao ako smo zapo?eli nešto ozbiljno. Zbog ovoga bi zapeo s nekim ko nije u stanju komunicirati na nivou na koji sam navikao. (o?igledno je imala emocionalne prtljage).

    Stoga je prekinula. Bio sam zajsta tužan ali poštovao sam njezine osje?aje.
    I pokušao spasiti svoje izbjegavaju?i je. Ali... o?igledno nisam nešto dobro pro?itao jer me nazvala jednu no? s naumom do obnovi vezu.

    Kako bi trebao reagirati na to?

    Probali smo još jednom. Tijekom vremena dogovorio sam sastanak sa starom prijateljicom. Ta djevojka je postala vrlo dobra prijateljica moje obitelji.
    Moji roditelji so je voljeli kao k?er. Stoga sam rekao partnerici do planiram posjetiti ovu djevojku. Trebao sam oti?i na samo jednu no?. Djevojka živi sa svojim majkom, bratom I sestrom. stoga nije da ?emo biti sami.

    Stoga, partnerica mi kaže "idi, ne?u te zaustaviti". Rekao sam joj da ne?u oti?i ako ona to ne želi I da je na njoj odluka. nakon tri dana prekinula je samnom opet jer da nema osje?aja prema meni.

    I to sve nakon što je pokušala obnoviti vezu. Ja to jednostavno ne shva?am?? Stoga evo me ovdje par godina kasnije, pokušaju?i shvatit situaciju. Zato sam zapo?eo ovu temu.

  2. #52
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    It's kind of cool how it sounds as if you're "reaching out" to us by posting this. I've wondered how much it would tell about the communication if you were speaking the same language as us.

    So you're convinced that writing the above example in Croatian more accurately conveys the meaning than writing it in English--even though the person who wrote it seems to think natively in English? (though it's funny that I had to try typing this sentence several times to find the best conveyance for my own thoughts...ha)
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  3. #53
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    It's kind of cool how it sounds as if you're "reaching out" to us by posting this. I've wondered how much it would tell about the communication if you were speaking the same language as us.

    So you're convinced that writing the above example in Croatian more accurately conveys the meaning than writing it in English--even though the person who wrote it seems to think natively in English? (though it's funny that I had to try typing this sentence several times to find the best conveyance for my own thoughts...ha)
    This is very simple example but I can say that to me the Croatian is more precise. But I know that this could be a very subjective viewpoint.

    The main reason why I am saying this is because on Croatian you can tell that a male is telling this story.

    Can you honestly say that form that post on English? Can tell that the person is a guy? It could be guy since that would make sense. But what if the person is a lesbian? What is becoming quite common today.


    Feel free to call me crazy but I think that gender matters.



    You don't know who wrote this. So you can only speculate about the persons gender. Since I am the one who dig the post out I know that we are talking about a guy.

  4. #54
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    I didn't even think that was the most interesting thing about it, but okay. In that way, it's interesting that the English passage can describe a person's emotion while staying detached from gender. It seems almost poetic that the person can hide himself with his writing, or that he must take effort to reveal his gender, reveal his self.

    Of course, I am just focusing on the example being discussed. I wonder if you intended us to stay focused on the background structure connecting it all--the theme of this thread, expressed in the title.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  5. #55
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    I didn't even think that was the most interesting thing about it, but okay. In that way, it's interesting that the English passage can describe a person's emotion while staying detached from gender. It seems almost poetic that the person can hide himself with his writing, or that he must take effort to reveal his gender, reveal his self.

    Of course, I am just focusing on the example being discussed. I wonder if you intended us to stay focused on the background structure connecting it all--the theme of this thread, expressed in the title.
    What you have said is in the direct center of this topic/thread.

    To you this is poetic to me it is incomplete. If I don't know the gender of the writter this information does not mean much too me.
    Since my language made me think like that.


    Of course this probably has something to with our types but our languages are the ones that make us think in a different way(s).
    Btw it is possible to hide your gender in Croatian as well.

  6. #56
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    In some senses, obviously it is incomplete. To take an approach to the person's problem, for example, it would help to know their gender. But I was talking only about the language and expression of thought and ideas, and was trying different ways of looking at the situation. Someone somewhere was probably thinking it, so I posted it.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  7. #57
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    In some senses, obviously it is incomplete. To take an approach to the person's problem, for example, it would help to know their gender. But I was talking only about the language and expression of thought and ideas, and was trying different ways of looking at the situation. Someone somewhere was probably thinking it, so I posted it.
    Well, you said it yourself the information can be more correct.
    I fully understand that there is a emotional part of the story.

  8. #58
    Te > Fi > Ni Shaula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    But there is a problem since I don't exactly think on Croatian either.
    I usuall think on some quite abstract ways and I have problems with saying things on any lanaguage. But Croatian is the one I am used to.

    The thing is that first I have form idea, then I have check is next to others things in "database" to make sure that entire thing makes sense and to make sure that this is actually what I want to say.

    Then I can form it onto a normal sentence that has Croatian logic in it and then I can start to turn it into a sentence on English.

    So what you get in the end is not exactly the same as things that are going around my head.


    From what I know Ni-dom people have problems in placing words into thoughts and I am curious about waht INFJs and INTJs think about this.
    Do we have our own Ni language?
    (I know that I am exaggerating to some degree)
    I think you meant to say, "From what I know Ni-dom people have problems in placing thoughts into words..." or more specifically "...indicating the right words derived from their thoughts..." This makes more sense to me and is more congruent with your speculation above. That being said, I will assume that my correction is correct. (If not, then please thrash me with the stupid stick.)

    I think I understand what you mean very well. Although I do not speak any other languages fluently it is a freqent occurance that I have difficultly expressing my abstract ideas in English. Often my ideas are first translated into pictures then I use English to describe the image based off of available vocabulary I know. Once I am able to translate the full picture into language then I critique my word choice/word order until I am satisfied that I have coveyed the correct meaning. It feels very much like a "trial and error" process.

    By the way, thank you for referring me to this interesting topic. Seriously, dude, marry me. This topic has given me reason to crush upon you.
    Is not to be held accuntable for peeling errors.

  9. #59
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    If I want to post anything I must start to think on english and if it is something more simple I can do it.

    But there is a problem since I don't exactly think on Croatian either. I usually think in some quite abstract ways and I have problems with saying things on any lanaguage. But Croatian is the one I am used to.

    The thing is that first I have form idea, then I have check is next to others things in "database" to make sure that entire thing makes sense and to make sure that this is actually what I want to say.

    Then I can form it onto a normal sentence that has Croatian logic in it and then I can start to turn it into a sentence on English.

    So what you get in the end is not exactly the same as things that are going around my head.
    I must say Anti I rather like your posts. I like your posts because they show an integrity in your thinking.

    However you and I approach thinking from exactly opposite angles.

    Whereas you work laboriously towards creating meaning, I discover meaning as I write or speak.

    So you write words, while words write me.

  10. #60
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    For sometime I am thinking about opening this thread.
    I don't want this to be a rant it is just that it could sound like it to some people. I would not be suprised that only people who know more languages will post here, but I am also interested in opinions of people who speak only English.



    I am interested in how language effects our picture of the world and thinking process and what people think about the idea that some languges are better in saying certain things.



    Here I am writting on English but my thinking process is quite different then the process of most people on this forum since many are from English speaking countries. I what I am interested in is how much difference there is and how nuch we are not aware of it.


    My native language is Croatian which is quite different from English in many aspects. The real translation is actually impossible so all the time I am actually gambling when I type posts since order of words must change.
    Many words have more meanings in both languages so I am not always sure that I am hiting the point. People understand it but it looks to me that they are not getting it 100% (and this is not their fault).
    Also I think that when I post in English I am actually hidding large piece of me and I am not showing myself for what I really am.


    Here are some examlpes of the differences.

    On English ocean is rated as it, but on Croatian it is rated as he.
    On English apple is rated as it, but on Croatian it is rated as she.

    And there are countless examples of this. This works for almost all nouns.


    I have said that some languages are better for saying something. Here is what I mean by this.

    On this forum many times it happened that people are not aware of other peoples gender. Like in the case of Nolla.

    But in Croatian this can't happen since words are modified for genders so you are always aware of the gender of a person about who you are hearing about. (if the person is posting/saying correct information)


    More theoretical example of this would be the word "friend" since in Croatian there are different words one for a female friend and one for a male friend.
    Same is with word "uncle" since there are two words for it one for a fathers side of a family one for mothers side of a family.


    Even the alphabet is not the same. In Croatian there is no X,Y,W or Q but there are other letters, like ?,?,Š,?,Ž . There are even letters made of two symbols like Lj, Nj or Dž .


    The main thing about Croatian is that words are not so "static" as in Englsh.
    English is more like playing with pieces of a puzzle while in Croatian words morph on many different ways. This is the main reason why translation is such a gamble. In a way this is only a tip of the iceberg but it enough that people understand actual topic.


    For people who don't know Croatian is similar to Russian.


    So my question for all people whose native language is English:
    Do you sometime notice that English is somewhat too simple to state your thoughts in a right way without saying large number of words,
    or do you not know for anything else and use what you have/know?
    (if you don't know any other language)

    What would point in a direction that our thinking process is quite different.
    If you think that there is a difference in this how would you deffine it?

    On the other hand English is much easier to learn then Croatian.


    This was when you compare English and Croatian in short and it would be interesting to compare other languages as well.
    There is only one language.
    There is only one race.

    Do you speak like your brother?
    No.
    Your brother speaks another language then?

    Divergence is in the family.
    It is not out there.

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