Thoughts on Shame

[zago]

Isnt there a form of meditation where you focus on a certain type of thoughts? (Like 'Love and Piece' or 'Pretty Wimmen' )

Bleh! Those are especially bad. Talk about trying to conform to a standard... those are a recipe for incredible shame.

 

[King sns]

I've lived with shame my whole life, due to some deep-seated issues and various opinions in my family and subculture concerning all of them.

I don't really have a magic formula for getting rid of shame.

All I know is that it all happened simultaneously with:

• Learning to let other people be responsible for their emotions and choices, and not letting them be responsible for mine.
• Internal self-acceptance and ending the denial of who I knew I was on some level. Funny how we can think something and yet still be in denial over it.
• Accepting that I am flawed... and it's okay, and even if other people SEE my flaws it's okay. No more apologies for anything related to WHO and WHAT I am; I will apologize for mistakes and poor choices, but no more apologies for my identity, nature, strengths, weaknesses, preferences, and whatever else. I am not a mistake, and I'm fine just the way I am.
• Committing to my path and no longer trying to "have my cake and eat it too." My choices and actions have ramifications. If I feel guilty over my choices and think they're bad, I need to make other choices. If I do not feel guilty over my choices, then I need to openly embrace and accept them and live life to the fullest.

So: No more need to justify, no more need to appease, no more need to impress, no more need to keep someone by my side. Everyone is free to praise or damn me as they wish.

None of that matters, regardless of how it feels. All that matters is whether or not I can accept myself and live with a clear conscience.

Jennifer, you couldn't have said it any better. I'm jelous of your ability to articulate so everything so well!!!

I was thinking what you said. but I was going to say something like...

"derrr.. accept yourself and but have accountability."
and make no sense whatsoever..

 

[cherchair]

I was driving home today and thinking, reflecting, on social anxiety. I used to think that I could "outrun" my social anxiety by being really active and engaging, but that just leaves me feeling exhausted. Likewise, I used to think I could suppress my anxiety if I avoided certain thoughts and maintained certain positive perceptions of myself, not letting myself slip up. This too leaves me feeling detached from myself.

It occurred to me a couple weeks ago that I have been engaged in war with myself, trying to conquer a part of my personality rather than embrace it. On a deep intuitive level, I can see the end of social anxiety, but it doesn't have to do with making the thoughts go away, but rather with changing the way I interface with those thoughts and feelings, not getting too wrapped up in the experience and instead letting it come and go.

But this is hard to do, and I think this has to do with shame. Shame makes the experience hurt a lot, and that makes it difficult to STOP trying to resist it. So, we get to shame.

I'm interested in what people think about shame, how to overcome it, what has practically worked, and what they think would work in theory, but feel free to post whatever ideas you have on it too.

This is probably going to be one of those posts that is too personal and doesn't address the issue, but Edahn's war with himself resonated strongly with me, so here goes. I spent most of my teens and 20s trying to talk myself out of deep depressions. I read books on positive thinking, the meaning of life (which seemed lost to me); I even majored in philosophy, hoping I'd find something there. Nothing worked and, like Edahn, my efforts only added to the pain of an already painful experience, and because I'm an exceptionally strong-willed person, my failure was not only baffling but shameful.

Then in my 20s I began to have to deal with the consequences of my behavior during periods of soaring elation (e.g., promiscuity, spending sprees), which added to the shame. Finallly at age 30 I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and far from being ashamed, I was relieved. I took my lithium like the good girl I was and knew a sense of peace that had eluded me since my mid-teens. I thought I had all the answers. My problems weren't caused by personality flaws but malfunctioning neurotransmitters; all I had to do was take my little pink capsules and all would be well. Wrong. For one thing, certain stressors could set off a mood episode despite the medication, but more importantly, I discovered that not all my problems could be blamed on my mental illness.

I discovered a strong need to appease, a willingness to sacrifice my authenticity on the alter of approval. Which raised the question of what was authentic. I could embrace the bipolar as part of who I was, but what about the rest of me? It's been a 30-year journey with lots of experimentation and exploration and I still can't say I know for sure, though I think what Jennifer said is the most articulate description of what I seek. What I do know for sure is that whenever shame rears its ugly head, the process stops. I think I'll check out the book INTJMom recommended too because I believe that facing my shame might help not to get so mired in it.

A few months ago my therapist said something I find really valuable: Given your diagnosis, she said, you're going to have few, if any, days symptom-free, but work through them; don't let them stop you from having a life. So I said you mean just act as if I wasn't feeling any symptoms--which didn't seem very realistic to me. But she said no, just don't let them get in the way of what's really important to you and let the rest go. What's so valuable in what she said is figuring out what's important enough to me to do despite, say, symptoms of mixed mood, depression or mania, is slowly leading me to a kind of overlook where I can see who and what I really am--and without the shame of not being able to be all things to all people.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Besides having generalized shyness and social anxiety, there are two forms of acute anxiety I have managed to conquer: driving and performing. Both have an element of shame, especially driving.

My driving anxiety was rather acute until just a few years ago, and I'm not that young. I used to vividly see collisions so much so that when driving on a two lane road, I would have to pull over and cry with an anxiety attack. Interstates with semi-trucks were overwhelming, since I could see myself being decapitated or whatever. I really felt like a dolt to not be a fully functioning adult. There was no quick fix or mental trick. I just figured out the end goal and what step I could take next. That gave me an idea of how many steps were needed to fill inbetween. I would start by driving with someone with me. I would practice driving new routes and write down every lane change I needed, and do all my preparing ahead of time. Then I would remind myself that I only needed to face one moment at time. I kept pushing myself again and again, not letting myself stop and lose any ground. Many times it "felt" like I was going to die and not come back home, but I did. I couldn't really overcome it until I could just focus all my emotional energy on the one task, then I had to be really tough with myself and keep pushing, but it worked. I drive all over urban areas and even drove most of the way across the U.S. by myself. The former shame is replaced by feeling self respect because I know what it took even if it seems like a mindless accomplishment to someone else.

The same thing was the case with my performing anxiety, which was a problem because it is my profession. There is no trick, I just have to keep pushing repeatedly. I actually am a little stressed about playing with an orchestra a week from Sunday because I just had an unexpectedly difficult gig with another ensemble where I actually was a bit of a dodo in rehearsal and had to really go over the top and memorize the whole thing just to survive the performance. Still, I am further than I was so I'll keep subjecting myself to the pressure, work my darndest to do well, then remind myself that being human is not such a bad thing.

 

[LostInNerSpace]

I was driving home today and thinking, reflecting, on social anxiety. I used to think that I could "outrun" my social anxiety by being really active and engaging, but that just leaves me feeling exhausted. Likewise, I used to think I could suppress my anxiety if I avoided certain thoughts and maintained certain positive perceptions of myself, not letting myself slip up. This too leaves me feeling detached from myself.

It occurred to me a couple weeks ago that I have been engaged in war with myself, trying to conquer a part of my personality rather than embrace it. On a deep intuitive level, I can see the end of social anxiety, but it doesn't have to do with making the thoughts go away, but rather with changing the way I interface with those thoughts and feelings, not getting too wrapped up in the experience and instead letting it come and go.

But this is hard to do, and I think this has to do with shame. Shame makes the experience hurt a lot, and that makes it difficult to STOP trying to resist it. So, we get to shame.

I'm interested in what people think about shame, how to overcome it, what has practically worked, and what they think would work in theory, but feel free to post whatever ideas you have on it too.

Absolutely right. Don't fight it. Work with it. Do you sometimes have strange feelings in your body? Feelings are physical manifestations of emotions. Work with those feelings. I did Tai Chi but had a lot of trouble seeing it's value until I learned of this connection. It makes a lot of sense and it does work. It's known as meditation in motion.

 

[Wild horses]

... I went to Catholic school so I have plenty of them

 

[Giggly]

I think shame is valuable and has been hectored into disfavor by the "I'm okay, you're okay" wave of psychology. Shame used to keep people on the right path, but it's been eclipsed by the worship of the god of baseless self-esteem.

I agree. Shame serves a purpose. It's just one method used to keep people in line. And no matter how much we don't want to be kept in line, lots of us need it!

 

[Salomé]

LOL @ the wanking thread!

Guilt is good. It is self-regulating. Without guilt we would all be sociopaths. If you have violated your own moral code, feel guilty, make amends, try harder next time.

Shame is worthless. It occurs when we internalize the expectations of others which have nothing to do with our own wants and needs. The conflict leads to feelings of worthlessness and wretchedness. It doesn't lead to growth, people tend to hide the things they are ashamed of, but continue to do them anyway, and thus begins a vicious circle and a downward spiral into low self esteem, depression, etc, etc. You have to face the fear of being rejected by others because you cannot be all that they want you to be, but continue to love yourself anyway. You have to believe that your own standards are as good as anyone else's and that being true to yourself is your first obligation in life.
Yeah - it's that easy. .

 

[disregard]

Shame is feeling like there is something wrong and unacceptable about yourself; guilt is feeling like there is something wrong and unacceptable about something you have done.

Shame is alright.. because once you unlearn the propensity to feel shameful, you experience a comfort like no other.

 

[Anja]

Good assessment of shame in your first sentence, disregard.

I'll take it farther and say that shame is not alright. Shame is a lie that we tell ourselves and then believe and that poisons our whole world. I think this is what you may be saying?

Considering that we are a shame-based society there are many who don't have a good grasp of it or recognize it in themselves.

It starts as a child is told that there is something inherently wrong with him and is reinforced from there.

We can force it underground and it will still play out in our actions and our discomfort.

The solution lies in recognizing those things we do which make us feel guilty and stopping that behavior whatever it is.

But the discernment is crucial.

Not
I am a flawed human being who sometimes does good things. Shame.
But rather
I am a good human who sometimes makes mistakes. Guilt.

Guilt is repairable. Shame is a constant damaging state.

I think Ivy has an understanding of this principle.

Anyway it is not as simple as saying to yourself although that's part of the process. The climb out of a shame-based lifestyle is long and arduous and it starts there.

The rest is action. Becoming the good person you want to be/know you are and lots of positive reinforcement from others. And learning to listen to your inner voice of shame, recognizing it for the lie it is and refuting it consistently.

 

[INTJMom]

Shame is feeling like there is something wrong and unacceptable about yourself; guilt is feeling like there is something wrong and unacceptable about something you have done.
...

This is a good definition of the difference between guilt and shame.

 

[Mempy]

I agree with Jennifer, Blue, Disregard and Anja.

On the path of self-improvement, when do you stop improving who you are and start disowning who you are? Because you can do both, but the second is self-destructive. The first is productive. But it's confusing knowing where to draw the line, I think.

I think maybe the difference between improving oneself and disowning oneself lies in where you intend to get your self-worth from. I call shame a diminished sense of worth and value, but I think there's a baseline level of worth and value that we all deserve regardless of whatever flaws or shortcomings we have. This value or worth is unconditional and exists because we exist and because we are human beings; it has no other conditions. But I think that perfectionists and overly self-critical people chip away at this basic worth, and they come to believe that it is not and cannot be unconditional, that they have to earn it, or else they think that the worth that they deserve because they are human is an insignificant amount, a triviality. They don't realize how significant it is, or that it really is not contingent upon performance or attributes or approval. For me, it was hardest to realize that it was not contingent upon performance.

I think that beyond this basic amount, there is a higher layer of worth that is conditional; I call this conditional worth self-esteem. It is THIS worth which should be affected when we do a wrong or do not perform well, but because it is a shallower and less paramount kind of worth, it does not break us to admit we have made a mistake or done a wrong; it does not kill us or make us lose our head. Knowing that on a basic level, we are unconditionally worthy helps us to accept our humanness but to also improve ourselves wholesomely and happily. When we believe we deserve a basic amount of unconditional worth, our best is good enough. When we do not believe are are unconditionally worthy, even our best isn't good enough, and it never can be.

When I'm trying to improve something about myself or my performance or my behavior, it does not become a like-or-death issue, like it often did when I thought my basic worth was contingent upon conditions. I try to tell myself that I'm just doing my best, and that because I am doing my best I deserve self-esteem - which, again, is contingent upon certain choices we make. Our basic worth, though, is not. Sometimes it is very hard to believe that.

I don't think you can or should have to earn your basic human worth, but I think you can and should earn a sense of efficacy and self-esteem. Confidence comes with knowledge, and if the knowledge is not earned, neither is the confidence. I don't have to prove myself to others, but to myself. And it is not worth I am proving, but that I am actually competent in something and can do it. It is my reputation with myself I am proving, not my worth. It is shallower and less important than my worth. My reputation with myself includes things like honesty, integrity, kindness, and things which I think help me like myself more. But I should always on a basic level like myself whatever my shortcomings, as Blue said.

And as Jennifer said, I'm not trying to prove anything to others, though I easily fall into this mode of being even yet. I try not to prove that I'm funny, or smart, or articulate, or kind, or anything else. My worth does not come from how I come across to others, who gives me the time of day, or anything to do with how other people respond to me, positively or negatively. It does not come from how well I perform, and this, for me, is the key.

Edit: And because it does not come from how well I perform, I can easily adopt a sort of attitude of gamesmanship with myself; I can lightheartedly challenge myself to impress myself or do well, without the fear that something so very precious is on the line if I fail. Because what is really precious does not have anything to do with how well I do or the results of my efforts.

 

[Nocapszy]

Edahn what happened here? You were ruminating and stumbled over shame as a cause for your problem so you want to hear other things about shame since it's not in your normal repertoire of thought?
Or... what?

 

[bluebell]

Not
I am a flawed human being who sometimes does good things. Shame.
But rather
I am a good human who sometimes makes mistakes. Guilt.

Guilt is repairable. Shame is a constant damaging state.

I think Ivy has an understanding of this principle.

Anyway it is not as simple as saying to yourself although that's part of the process. The climb out of a shame-based lifestyle is long and arduous and it starts there.

The rest is action. Becoming the good person you want to be/know you are and lots of positive reinforcement from others. And learning to listen to your inner voice of shame, recognizing it for the lie it is and refuting it consistently.

What Anja said. For me, it was also necessary to look at the origins of shame (ie childhood) and see exactly where it all came from. It feels true and breaking it down required looking at it objectively. I'm not sure I'm making much sense, I find it hard to put it into words.

 

[Anja]

This concept of shame is one of the reasons I use sarcastic humor sparingly. Surrounding myself with people who frequently use playful putdowns may be operating through defense of their own personal shame and it can trigger and reinforce the shame that I work to stay free from.

Recognizing it? A sense of feeling "small." Yes. That's what it feels like. Little person. Insignificant, powerless, deserving of punishment. That's what my shame feels like.

Sometimes it's accompanied by a feeling of warmth in my face.

If I find myself experiencing that I remove myself from the situation. Time to regroup and be "grown-up" again.

For years I didn't even know that's what I was experiencing when I'd suddenly feel trapped and helpless. Definitely am sensitive to it now and practice has helped me to quickly name it and avoid it.

How serious is it? It's what fuels addiction and other self-destructive behaviors. That's how seriously I consider it. The root of self-loathing which leads to deterioration. We fall to its influence and we finish the job others have started.

 

[INTJMom]

...
How serious is it? It's what fuels addiction and other self-destructive behaviors. That's how seriously I consider it.

You are quite right.
The book I recommended earlier in the thread corroborates your statement.

The root of self-loathing which leads to deterioration. We fall to its influence and we finish the job others have started.

I do the same thing.
Or at least I used to.
I can't afford to go down that road any more.

 

[heart]

I think shame is valuable and has been hectored into disfavor by the "I'm okay, you're okay" wave of psychology. Shame used to keep people on the right path, but it's been eclipsed by the worship of the god of baseless self-esteem.

I agree here. There's healthy and unhealthy shame. Shame in general should not be thrown out, only unhealthy shame. Unhealthy shame demands that a person be super human. Healthy shame recognizes when we have done wrong to others or ourselves and helps us know when to make amends and to avoid mistakes in the future.

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

Edahn what happened here? You were ruminating and stumbled over shame as a cause for your problem so you want to hear other things about shame since it's not in your normal repertoire of thought?
Or... what?

I think shame is part of the reason I can't get perspective and reign in certain parts of my personality that I find difficult (social anxiety and isolation), and I wanted to get some ideas about how people tackle shame, or rather, work with it.

 

[Anja]

You are quite right.
The book I recommended earlier in the thread corroborates your statement.


I do the same thing.
Or at least I used to.
I can't afford to go down that road any more.

 

[LadyJaye]

I struggle with feeling profoundly ashamed of myself, not because I don't like the person I am, but because my surroundings don't reflect back to myself or others the sort of person I know I am on the inside. I link shame to things I can't control, things that people could use to hurt me in a vulnerable moment. I fear a lack of mercy and compassion in others.

The only way I've found to keep shame from overtaking me is to give the situation to God and make the choice to let go of it. That prevents me from continuing to defend and exhaust myself.