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  1. #81
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    When I was young, I often used 'truth' as an excuse for cruelty. As I got older I realized that a truth told with malicious intent can be as wrong and as harmful as any lie and the pendulum swung too far in the direction of withholding unpleasant truths. I am beginning to consider moving more the other way again, but we shall see. There is a time and a place. Some people are not worth telling the truth to. Sometimes you need to be aware of how close someone is to the edge and be careful not to kick them while they are down just because what you need to say is true. Life is not simple.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    No, being compassionate is not telling others what they want to hear. Compassion is sharing someone's pain with them (look at the word: com-with; passion-suffering! suffering with.). There is inherent truth in compassion. Compassion does not require that you lie to make someone feel better; it requires that you empathize with what they're actually experiencing.
    Forgive me if I gave the impression that lying equated compassion. What I meant to say was how can I empathize with someone who has a different set of perceptions than I do? Should I say "I know what your going through" or "I know how you feel" even if I don't? That's what I meant about what others want to hear - that I do empathize even if I can't.

    When I did try to empathize, I'd always screw it up by trying to point out what could be done to fix whatever the issue that caused the suffering. I figured it was easier to simply fix the issue -eliminating the cause of suffering in the first place - rather than try to share the suffering. So I have withdrawn and left others to their own devices.

    Again, my apologies if I gave the impression that lying was a good or even viable option. It never is.
    ...doesn't work or play well with others...

  3. #83
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Condor View Post
    What I meant to say was how can I empathize with someone who has a different set of perceptions than I do? Should I say "I know what your going through" or "I know how you feel" even if I don't?
    Maybe try to deduce what their different perceptions are (different premises), and see where you would go with those premises if they were true to you.

    Both parties are usually logically correct. Figuring out the opposing assumption set is the hard part in communication.

  4. #84
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Condor View Post
    Forgive me if I gave the impression that lying equated compassion. What I meant to say was how can I empathize with someone who has a different set of perceptions than I do? Should I say "I know what your going through" or "I know how you feel" even if I don't? That's what I meant about what others want to hear - that I do empathize even if I can't.

    When I did try to empathize, I'd always screw it up by trying to point out what could be done to fix whatever the issue that caused the suffering. I figured it was easier to simply fix the issue -eliminating the cause of suffering in the first place - rather than try to share the suffering. So I have withdrawn and left others to their own devices.

    Again, my apologies if I gave the impression that lying was a good or even viable option. It never is.
    You ask important questions here I think. It is an imperfect process. Probably no one can empathize perfectly, and we all make mistakes even those who seem to have some natural ability at figuring out how other people feel and view the world. Practicing any skill in communication and observation typically increases one's ability to do it well, so it is a long and arduous process. It's okay that it is like that because our mistakes are often what help us to empathize at a later point when someone else makes a similar mistake. I've made some unexpected doozies of mistakes, but I learned more about people from those experiences than any others.

    In my earlier post I used the example of "do I look fat" because it is by nature so subjective that it is hard to determine what would be the truth about it. There are many occurrences like that between people. I find the simplest bottom line when being unsure how to approach someone is to admit our own shortcomings truthfully and also express respect for the person. I've noticed that any sort of constructive criticism is more easily taken in once that sense of respect is established by saying something truthful and positive to the person. There is also an issue of timing. If someone is in emotional distress, it is often better to wait until they have a calm sense of mind to take in a harder truth. At any given moment our perceptions change at least a little, and so does our ability to think clearly, understanding what someone else is trying to say.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  5. #85
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    I like how Toonia and Eileen were saying that truth often is compassion. Toonia said because it helps a person deal with life, or something like that, and I agree. I also agree that timing and intention are important.

    "It doesn't matter what I think - what do you think?"

    Would that be cold or uncaring? Would it be a sign to the questioner that they should value their own opinion more and seek others' out less?
    I can imagine my best friend, an INTJ, saying that to me, as a gentle reminder that it is really only my opinion that matters. And yes, in my head I imagine it being comforting. But context is important; it depends on what I was asking and what state of mind I was in. I would probably never be asking someone if I looked fat. I can vividly imagine my best friend saying this to me, and I have the feeling she actually has before, but I can't remember what it was in response to.
    They're running just like you
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    So people, people, need some good ol' love

  6. #86
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    ah here is a more NF way of putting it: it's like comparing apples and oranges.
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

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  7. #87
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Wait . . . My sister-in-law is cheating on my brother and I know this to be absolutely true?

    I talk to her and ask her what's the deal. If she addresses it either by stopping with the cheating and/or confessing to my brother and/or undergoing counseling, etc I leave it be. I would never tell him unless it was something that just wasn't going to stop and he was going to find out anyway in a worse way than his sister telling him.

    Some other kind of cheating . . . I'd probably leave it alone.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #88
    Senior Member placebo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    im changing my opinion

    truth and compassion are non sequitur which is why people can't choose lol

    an antonym for compassion is coldness and an antonym for truth is dishonesty.

    coldness is not a synonym for dishonesty.

    this is an ENFPs attempt at basic logic lol
    I think this is a good point. Our understanding of compassion and truth are a bit mixed up.

    You can be either one or the other, but it's better to be both

  9. #89
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by placebo View Post
    I think this is a good point. Our understanding of compassion and truth are a bit mixed up.

    You can be either one or the other, but it's better to be both
    beautifully stated...
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

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  10. #90
    Senior Member niffer's Avatar
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    Truth.

    The truth is seldom hard to hear. It's not like it has to be delivered harshly or in a hurtful way. Knowing it is constructive. And if compassion is supposedly on the other end of the spectrum...well, how am I supposed to be comforted by BS?

    edit: re-thinking this, saying that they are on opposite sides of a spectrum really cannot make sense
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