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lying

prplchknz

Well-known member
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Jun 11, 2007
Messages
34,397
MBTI Type
yupp
when is it ok to lie?
how much of the truth should you bend?
do you ever lie, even though it be a lot simpler to tell the truth?
have people caught you in a lie?
if so what were their reaction?
Do you lie more then you should?
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
when is it ok to lie?
how much of the truth should you bend?
do you ever lie, even though it be a lot simpler to tell the truth?
have people caught you in a lie?
if so what were their reaction?
Do you lie more then you should?

I would lie to save your life or to save your feelings.

But it's a slippery slope.

If I were unfaithful, I might lie to save your feelings.

And once I lie to you, I might be tempted again.

How I much prefer to see your smiling face, than to hear your harsh words.

And then saving your feelings, would be saving my feelings. You see, dear Prpichknz, it would be a virtuous circle. How a little lie could make us both happy.

But it is better than the alternative of neither saving your life nor saving your feelings.

It's a choice between two evils - should I lie and make us both happy, or should I tell the truth and bring bitterness and recrimination between us?

But perhaps we could compromise. I could lie but you wouldn't.

Imagine how good you would feel. You would feel bright and shiny and new every time your told the truth; and you would feel good everytime I told you a lie.

This would be the best of both worlds for me and for you.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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INTP
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I would lie to save your life or to save your feelings.

If I were unfaithful, I might lie to save your feelings.

And then saving your feelings, would be saving my feelings. You see, dear Prpichknz, it would be a virtuous circle. How a little lie could make us both happy.

But it is better than the alternative of neither saving your life nor saving your feelings.

It's a choice between two evils - should I lie and make us both happy, or should I tell the truth and bring bitterness and recrimination between us?

I think that's much too simple a formula, because it overlooks the fact that when you lie, you distance yourself from the person. Most people would prefer an honest and intimate relationship with conflict than a superficial relationship that's free of conflict. So, in lying to them to spare their feelings, you're really screwing them over and inflicting damage.


I wouldn't lie just to save someone's feelings for that reason. I would lie, however, to truly help someone. The difference is that sometimes hurt feelings actually DO help people. For example, if my friend asks me why she can't secure a relationship, I could (a) spare her feelings, using Victor's method or (b) tell her the truth while sacrificing her feeling because in the end it will (presumably) help her. I would choose (b), and I think it's a no brainer. Deciding what information HELPS and what information HURTS isn't a science. It's an art form that takes wisdom and keen perception, juggling lots of variables and having a clear target.
 

Skyward

Badoom~
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Jul 3, 2008
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I don't usually lie... I just flake out. :blush:

I only lie when I can imagine the outcomes and thing of a few more lies if I needed to.

I think into my lies a lot when I actually do something that needs a lie to cover up.

Put me on the spot, though, and I'll come straight out. I cant cover up something when I was caught red handed, you know :cheese:

I say its okay to lie when in the end it wont do any damage. If its a tricky lie, might as well be honest. ITs better to have someone angry at your honesty than them being angry at your dishonesty.

If they see you as being honest, but you're not, that is better (Logically) than being honest and them being angry at you.

Unless you have Fi :)


The distancing thing it a HUGE factor too. (I wouldnt have thought of that Edahn, thanks :) )
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
... tell her the truth while sacrificing her feeling because in the end it will (presumably) help her.

It wasn't so long ago that we made human sacrifice to appease the feelings of God. For instance, the Catholic Mass is a human sacrifice.

So how natural we sacrifice the feelings of those we love, because, "in the end it will help her".

Human sacrifice is profoundly etched into the human species - it will save us - it is redemptive.

So perhaps as you suggest, we can redeem ourselves by sacrificing her feelings.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
when is it ok to lie?
I personally lie every opportunity I get.
how much of the truth should you bend?
A lot of the things I say I do never happened.
do you ever lie, even though it be a lot simpler to tell the truth?
The whole point is that the truth is boring. Making it complicated fixes that.
have people caught you in a lie?
Rarely, but it happens.
Do you lie more then you should?
What a loaded question.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

Well-known member
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INTP
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It wasn't so long ago that we made human sacrifice to appease the feelings of God. For instance, the Catholic Mass is a human sacrifice.

So how natural we sacrifice the feelings of those we love, because, "in the end it will help her".

Human sacrifice is profoundly etched into the human species - it will save us - it is redemptive.

So perhaps as you suggest, we can redeem ourselves by sacrificing her feelings.

That would be a great bonus, yes.

:party:
 

Jack Flak

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Jul 17, 2008
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type
I personally lie every opportunity I get.
A lot of the things I say I do never happened.
The whole point is that the truth is boring. Making it complicated fixes that.
Rarely, but it happens.

What a loaded question.
ENTPs are natural exaggerators. Even when discussing their own exaggerations.
 

Kasper

Diabolical
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May 30, 2008
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Lie in the first instance and you dig yourself into a hole if someone calls you on it. Honesty is always the best policy imo, tact is never overrated however.
 

entropie

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Apr 24, 2008
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when is it ok to lie?
Never.
how much of the truth should you bend?
Nothing.
do you ever lie, even though it be a lot simpler to tell the truth?
No, but I dont say everything I experience. What some people would see as to be laied to but if I start thinking like that my blog wanders to the NF morales.
have people caught you in a lie?
see above
 

Anja

New member
Joined
May 2, 2008
Messages
2,967
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INFP
I try to be as honest as seems prudent. I feel better about myself when I'm truthful and keeping a rule of honesty keeps me from doing things I wouldn't want to have to tell anyone about.

Besides, my memory is getting too poor to try to remember which lies I've told to whom! Heh.
 

Mole

Permabanned
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Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
That would be a great bonus, yes.

:party:

The Jeuits have it nailed. They tell me that it is wrong to tell a lie, but there is no obligation to tell the truth.

And not to be outdone by the Jesuits, Islam counters with Taqiyya. And tell me that it is wrong to lie to muslims but it is fine to lie to infidels.

And we all know that a good diplomat lies for his country.
 

Anja

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No talk of "Sin of Omission" from the good Catholics?
 

Mole

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Messages
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No talk of "Sin of Omission" from the good Catholics?

Well, there are sins of Ommission. And there are sins of Commission. Then there are sins of Emission.

Call me silly if you wish, but Email has always been an Occasion of Sin for me.

But the Bible tells me that even the good man sins seven times a day. So I try to never send more than seven Emails on any one day.

However my Confessor tells me that my besetting sin is Scruples

Surely I say, a peccadillo?

Would you want me to be a man without scruples?
 

wolfy

awsm
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
12,251
when is it ok to lie?
To save a life.

how much of the truth should you bend?
As much as need be.

do you ever lie, even though it be a lot simpler to tell the truth?
No, I lied because the truth would complicate matters.

have people caught you in a lie?
Now and again.

if so what were their reaction?
Surprise, Anger.

Do you lie more then you should?
I never lie anymore, the truth is more simpler these days. Easier to take my medicine like a man.

Peoples idea of the truth is often so selective it might as well be a lie.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
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If it's even somewhat selective, it's a lie.

Lying is probably the best thing to happen since the Nixon era.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
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This topic has rather fuzzy boundaries primarily because the truth isn't always ours to tell. Human being's thoughts and perceptions are easily distorted, and this is the primary reason that using false information is even an option. Since false information of any kind is in conflict with reality, it would seem to be less stable in the long-term than ideas supported by reality. The ability of the human mind to hold on to such distortions is the only things that gives a lie any endurance.

If you take two individuals, both selling crappy vacuum cleaners, and one really believes it is a good deal, while the other is knowingly conning his customers, the result for the customer is equivalent. Did one tell the truth because they actually believed the lie? The more I look at this, the more I see truth as an unattainable ideal.

I do see value in making a consistent effort to communicate what is true to the best of my ability. The point of this is to build credibility and trust long-term. I prefer to think long-term and so I value facing reality as it is and attempting to make it relevant in my communication. There are subjective moments when it is experience an not information that is being communicated, and in that instance I attempt to communicate based on that. For example, I had a dear friend attack me verbally and the information was false, but the experience was an attempt to reach out to be validated. For this reason I apologized for something I hadn't done because this person was craving that validation and was reaching out to me to give it. The truth I told was that I cared about them and that they can count on me to have their best interest at heart. I have later since attempted to gently demonstrate ways the information was false without focusing on it too much. In another example, the old question of whether or not you would tell a soldier where a friend was hiding so they would kill them, no I would be plenty happy to lie to the soldier. This is because the soldier is asking me for the location of a life he hold the right to violate and the answer to that question is "I have not seen any such person". In my thinking, that is as much truth as anything I would know to say.
 

Anja

New member
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May 2, 2008
Messages
2,967
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Well, there are sins of Ommission. And there are sins of Commission. Then there are sins of Emission.

Call me silly if you wish, but Email has always been an Occasion of Sin for me.

But the Bible tells me that even the good man sins seven times a day. So I try to never send more than seven Emails on any one day.

However my Confessor tells me that my besetting sin is Scruples

Surely I say, a peccadillo?

Would you want me to be a man without scruples?

A "besetting sin" of Scruples treads close to one of the Seven, Victor, my dear grape-peeler. Pride. Watch'er step with that one. ;)

Wouldn't care to get an email with a sin of Emission attached. Nope, wouldn't wanna.


No pecadillos either. (I love them little armoured suckers.)
 
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