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  1. #21
    Kickin' Ass since 1984 GargoylesLegacy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Stars View Post
    I am actually much happier, confident, and at ease with myself now that I no longer try to be someone I'm not. My mom was always of the opinion that I needed to be "fixed" somehow, and that I would never get anywhere in life if I didn't conform to that, even going so far as to say that I'll end up being a homeless bum.
    Oh Gee! I can relate to that REALLY strong. My Mother was the very freaking same! She even sent me to some Psychiatrists (longest was 4 Years in a Row), only to find out that I had "Nothing".
    I was completely fine. It was HER who was fu**ed up.
    I actually had to act a lot at "Home" because of her.

  2. #22
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    What if, after a while, the faking becomes sincere? You convince yourself that that's how you are, and you can't tell the difference. Sound possible? (Nightning, is that related to what you're saying?)
    That's something that's been bugging me for a while, and I like how you phrased this.

    I used to have social anxiety and made myself practice talking to people, so now I can do it on auto-pilot with minimal anxiety. I talked about this feeling like it's just a mask on another forum once, and someone else wrote 'Every single thing you choose to show is a part of yourself and your personality.' in response. I'm still thinking about this, because it feels fake to some degree, but at the same time I can see what she means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wade Wilson View Post
    If someone wants to overcome their shyness, it has to be a genuine evolution. They have to be willing to put in the sacrifice and effort to grow. If someone is just pretending not to be shy in a situation, they're going to go right back to where they were afterwards and soon their entire being is a lie, because they're not acting to grow as a person, but just to accommodate the situation they find themself in.
    For me, it's been a combination of internal change and faking it til you make it.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    What I meant by fooling is relating to perception. In some cases, perception is everything. What starts out as an act becomes genuine.

    An example:
    Pretend you're a shy person that hates public speaking. However presentation skills are virtually a must-have if you want that senior management position. What do you do? You pretend you're okay with everything. Step in front of the investors and make your speech.

    Yes, it's an act. But your audience is expecting you to sell stuff to them. Because of their expectations, they didn't see it as "fake" because it goes with the position.

    A positive response (or at least not a negative one). You see that perhaps your initial fear is an overreaction. You go out there and make some more speeches. Practice makes perfect.

    It doesn't really change your base nature as an introvert... so what's wrong with "faking"?
    Hmm. Public speaking is a bit different to chatting to people, I think. Public speaking can be seen more as an act. You put on the public speaking persona and do your presentation. People seem to accept that's how it often is for a lot of people, probably because many people find public speaking pretty nerve-wracking.

    However, to do that for day to day interactions - chatting with friends or colleagues - feels intrinsically more fake to me. I think that's because most people are comfortable interacting with others, and it is a personal interaction, unlike public speaking where often you're presenting your work's POV and it really has nothing to do with you as a person.

    *goes to read Thread #2*
    ...so much smoke pouring out of each chromosome.

  3. #23
    Senior Member MissMurder's Avatar
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    Fake it til you make it is valid from the standpoint of brain science. I'll explain from what I can remember, since I'm still at the "dabbling" stage of knowledge. I encourage you to get out there and study it for yourself if you're interested.

    The conscious mind is only one sixth of the brain. The other five sixths is the non-conscious brain. The non-conscious brain sees in images, and takes everything as fact. Examples of this include crying at a sad movie, or feeling frightened during a horror movie. Your rational conscious mind knows that it's only a film, and that it's not real. But the non-conscious mind believes what it sees, period.

    If you think about that fact for a minute or two, no further explanation is needed, though I'll try to give it since I'm bored. "Fake it til you make it" is essentially using your conscious mind to reprogram your non-conscious mind. You're not attempting to deceive yourself.

    What can be gained by reprogramming the non-conscious mind? Well, for starters the non-conscious mind is a lot bigger than the conscious one. Imagine pitting a scrawny 100 pound man against a 500 pound gorilla in a boxing ring. Who's gonna win? The impulses and thoughts coming up from the non-conscious mind are going to be very hard for the conscious mind to resist. So, use that to your advantage.

    It's important to understand that you're not actually attempting to delude your conscious mind. For example, say you want a healthier self image. You look in the mirror every morning and announce "I look fantastic today!"... and your conscious mind is going to pitch a fit. What the hell? You look like utter crap. Don't you see *insert flaw here*? Now not only are you one ugly bastard, you're a liar on top of it. You actually believe in that affirmation junk? Great, now you're stupid on top of everything else. etc, etc. But since you're not talking to the conscious mind, just ignore it.

    This is the science behind affirmations. The Secret is a load of bull (no offense to anyone who believes in it). They say that the affirmations you speak on a daily basis will trigger the power of the universe, and that the universe will give things to you... etc. No, that's incorrect. The affirmations work because they retrain the automatic thought patterns of the non-conscious mind, and the conscious mind is almost completely influenced by the thoughts that rise up from the non-conscious portion of the brain. So if you're using affirmations for wealth and results start appearing, you're not attracting wealth from the bounty of the universe. Your non-conscious mind has simply been told to look for opportunities for the expansion of wealth and it's been more receptive to such things.

    Negative positives are not your achievement friend. An example of an affirmation fail is "Don't overeat." If I say "Don't imagine a pink elephant!", what happens? You see it, don't you? Okay, apply that to "Don't overeat." The image triggered was that of what you DO NOT WANT... and it was an order to the non-conscious mind (remember, it believes pictures), isn't that sad?

    "Don't screw up this meeting."

    "Don't say the wrong thing."

    "Don't procrastinate."

    "Don't lose this game."

    Etc.

    A positive positive is the correct format for the non-conscious mind, since it generates an image of what you actually wish the achieve. It takes conscious effort to change your self talk from negative to positive.

    I could go on and on and on. But to answer the question, yes, fake it til you make it works... if done correctly. And having a grasp of the science behind what you're doing helps tremendously.
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  4. #24
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissMurder View Post
    Fake it til you make it is valid from the standpoint of brain science. I'll explain from what I can remember, since I'm still at the "dabbling" stage of knowledge. I encourage you to get out there and study it for yourself if you're interested.

    The conscious mind is only one sixth of the brain. The other five sixths is the non-conscious brain. The non-conscious brain sees in images, and takes everything as fact. Examples of this include crying at a sad movie, or feeling frightened during a horror movie. Your rational conscious mind knows that it's only a film, and that it's not real. But the non-conscious mind believes what it sees, period.

    ...

    A positive positive is the correct format for the non-conscious mind, since it generates an image of what you actually wish the achieve. It takes conscious effort to change your self talk from negative to positive.
    Right! This aspect escaped my mind. Thank you for reminding me.

    I take it you're interested in psychology? May I recommend an article to you? It relates to conscious vs unconscious mind, discussing whether the self is composed of one entity or many entities. Very well written, albeit a tad lengthy and the views slightly skewed. But I thought you might enjoy it.

    First Person Plural - The Atlantic (November 2008)

  5. #25
    Senior Member MissMurder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Right! This aspect escaped my mind. Thank you for reminding me.

    I take it you're interested in psychology? May I recommend an article to you? It relates to conscious vs unconscious mind, discussing whether the self is composed of one entity or many entities. Very well written, albeit a tad lengthy and the views slightly skewed. But I thought you might enjoy it.

    First Person Plural - The Atlantic (November 2008)
    Awesome, thanks!
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    Funnily enough I just had a discussion about this in one of my business classes. It's actually one of the harder things in life to easily grasp because of some of the reasons you so beautifully presented.

    It is something that I would assume allows us to get through life with a decent measure of success. The question then is, as you stated in the latter half of your post is, How would you go about incorporating such measures in areas where there is naturally self doubt. I think the key lies in fully understanding the science and logistics behind just why you're brain works the way it does and then utilizing a number of different "test cases" to see how you're brain reacts.

    I guess in my mind it is necessary to consciously try and blend "positive, positive" reinforcement under a certain amount of duress, a contingency plan if you will. If you never accounted for the pressure that is there come *game time* you stand a much greater risk of fumbling about and forgetting what it was you just practiced.

    In sports I think the duress tactic is akin to shooting three pointers imagining the buzzer is winding down and its the only way to win, or the 2 minute drill, game winning shots in hockey or soccer, etc...


    *The long term implications is another interesting topic. Is it sort of a prerequisite for intensive study?

    I remember reading a couple of articles that referenced the concept of studying something and having it frequent your thoughts and discussions so much that your brain internalized it and sort of "cogitated" on it even while you were busy doing other things.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  7. #27
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    It seems easy enough to implement yet so few can adequately do it. It is after all one of the most frequent things touched on in pop psychology books, marketing schools, advertisements, you could even make the case that most parents sort of externalize this line of thinking to enshrine it into there kids thought processes.
    Just to paint a more complete picture, positive self-reinforcement isn't necessarily a good thing. Like the positive self-esteem program initiated in the american educational system. Yes, kids are becoming more self confidence, but they aren't necessarily doing any better. In fact, the reverse case is observed where the kids feel so great about themselves that they didn't think it's necessary to work harder.

    Compare that to students in say Singapore. Studies have shown that Singapore students overall rate their mathematical abilities as being lower than that of American students. That is the average singapore student feels less confident at the math skills than the average american student, yet in aptitude and skill assessment tests, they do much much better.

    This unrealistic elevation in self esteem also leads to increase narcissistic tendencies in teenagers. Narcissism of cause have been well correlated to bullying behaviors.

    Thoughts on this?

    It is something that I would assume allows us to get through life with a decent measure of success. The question then is, as you stated in the latter half of your post is, How would you go about incorporating such measures in areas where there is naturally self doubt. I think the key lies in fully understanding the science and logistics behind just why you're brain works the way it does and then utilizing a number of different "test cases" to see how you're brain reacts.
    Agreed. I think the focus should be about understanding. Not just the basics of neuroscience, but also a realistic assessment of your own abilities. Going over your strengths and weaknesses in order to accurately gauge whether you're overreacting or not. If you are, then you apply positive reinforcement.

    In cases where you in fact do not have the required skill sets, you're better off attaining those skills in the first place rather than applying positive thinking.

    I remember reading a couple of articles that referenced the concept of studying something and having it frequent your thoughts and discussions so much that your brain internalized it and sort of "cogitated" on it even while you were busy doing other things.
    Can you tell me more about these studies? It sounds interesting

  8. #28
    Senior Member MissMurder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Compare that to students in say Singapore. Studies have shown that Singapore students overall rate their mathematical abilities as being lower than that of American students. That is the average singapore student feels less confident at the math skills than the average american student, yet in aptitude and skill assessment tests, they do much much better.

    ...

    Thoughts on this?
    Singapore's teaching methods are far superior to the way we teach mathematics. So I'm thinking that's the reason for the better test scores. The Singapore kids might not be as confident, but perhaps their standards are simply much higher.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissMurder View Post
    Singapore's teaching methods are far superior to the way we teach mathematics. So I'm thinking that's the reason for the better test scores. The Singapore kids might not be as confident, but perhaps their standards are simply much higher.
    This is all very true!

    However, I tried to think about this more because the concept or question she provided seemed to provide a pathway for a more generalized answer.

    Could it be that sometimes having an over inflated sense of what is necessary might serve as way to increase the scope of your achievements. The "expect nothing less than excellence" attitude. It is something that I think has to be instituted very carefully, a certain amount of experience must be had in order to accurately gauge the boundaries.

    If you think about it such methods are most often possessed by the most skilled teachers. If I were to guess I would say their mentality abhors comfort and complacency. In fact do they not say that the best way to learn is to flirt with the boundaries of your intellectual comfort zone.

    Is that not the reason why they so rigorously endorse gifted education. To allow such brilliant kids to have the "privilege" of testing the limits of their capabilities.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  10. #30
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    This is all very true!

    However, I tried to think about this more because the concept or question she provided seemed to provide a pathway for a more generalized answer.

    Could it be that sometimes having an over inflated sense of what is necessary might serve as way to increase the scope of your achievements. The "expect nothing less than excellence" attitude. It is something that I think has to be instituted very carefully, a certain sense of experience must be gained in setting the boundaries.
    Over inflated sense of what's necessary... that's one way of looking at it. Excellence can only be obtained if we are diligent in applying ourselves. Very true.

    The alternative (and what I originally had in mind) is an over inflated sense of worth. Believing we're competent when we in fact are not. This has be attributed to the failing of the american self-esteem program. Self-esteem of the kids are as high as ever, but their sense of self do not reflect reality. It relates to what I said about obtaining a true understanding of ourselves and our abilities.

    Know what we are capable of and be confident at our capabilities. The two must go hand in hand for us to succeed.

    If you think about it such methods are most often possessed by the most skilled teachers. If I were to guess I would say their mentality abhors comfort and complacency. In fact do they not say that the best way to learn is to flirt with the boundaries of your intellectual comfort zone.

    Is that not the reason why they so rigorously endorse gifted education. To allow such brilliant kids to have the "privilege" of testing the limits of their capabilities.
    Definitely. Skilled teachers that knows how to build up confidence in their students and to provide them with a step progression of intellectually stimulating lessons are rare finds.

    So are gifted children who are a pleasure to teach. We had a little girl visit our lab. I watched her solved logic puzzles in a game. She understands cause and effect and developed simple strategies of solving the puzzles. She also read everything on screen out loud and has complete understanding. She's only 5. A very smart kid. She'll go far.

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