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  1. #61
    Senor Membrane
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    I really hope someday to see an end to the constant belittling of the capabilities of those of us who prefer Sensing. It would thrill me to see more people on this list truly understanding that everyone uses both sensing and intuition, and that everyone is capable of pursuing every activity that interests them and that all human beings are capable of, including acting on the basic human drive to initiate positive change, and to create visual works of art.
    I think the reason you've seen too much of this attitude, is the "SP = art" stereotype. You see, there probably are many Ns here who feel like they are capable of making art too, and they have been defending their skills against the Keirseyan stereotype. He actually says that NFs try art because they see it romantic, but soon get tired of it since their tactical intelligence is so bad. To me this sounds like such a harsh way to put it that I might myself try to fight the stereotype... I do make art. I don't know if it's fine or anything, but I do make it. No keirsey come here and tell me otherwise. (actually I do get bored a lot, but then I get back to it in few months or so....)

  2. #62
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firelie View Post
    I stereotypically believed that Sensors were the artistic types.
    Me too.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
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  3. #63
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Any type can be an artist. Although I think type affects how an artist approaches their art and what the final product looks like.
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  4. #64
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    Okay, people, time for a reality check here....

    I’ve noticed a number of comments posted here and there on this list about art and type preferences, and since a few of these comments are on private lists that I can’t contribute to, I’d like to respond to them here. It really disturbs me that so many people here have brainwashed themselves into believing you have to have a preference for intuition in order to produce fine art. I feel angry at the way these people dismiss “Sensors” as being not capable of produce anything of artistic value. One of the moderators here writes that she thinks Sensors are only capable of pushing things around on paper or canvas aimlessly, as though having a preference for Sensing means having limited brains, no vision for what we want to do with our time, and no beliefs worth promoting. Another person writes in a private forum that some Sensors “allegedly” see themselves as creative and artistic, as if those of us who do believe we have those qualities might be just kidding ourselves. I’m not sure where this idea originated from. Perhaps it’s because Isabel Myers wasn’t very specific or careful when she equated the word “creative” with N. I don’t know. At any rate, because I’ve created fine art myself (though I don’t rely on it for a living), and have spent years both in college-level art classes around plenty of other fine artists, and have spent lots of time around local professional artists in my city, it seems obvious to me that not only are a number of people who prefer Sensing producing high quality fine art all the time, every day, but… you really need to develop both processes in yourself in order to make something of high quality that will have a lot of visual and psychological impact on others.

    The act of creating tangible visual art requires you to be sensitive to detail and keenly aware of what your tools can do. If you want to say something that will be visually arresting, thought-provoking, and memorable, you need to learn technique. You also need to explore the limits of the tools you’re working with. People who aren’t interested in learning technique and paying attention to visual form, balance, contrast and details tend to produce amateurish-looking art that doesn’t capture and hold people’s attention, and the visual message gets lost. (From what I’ve noticed, if these people are lucky enough to find an artists’ co-op or gallery wiling to display their art, they tend to write these loooong artists descriptions, but they also tend to be disappointed by the lukewarm reaction they’re getting from visitors.) The thing is, anyone who wants to learn how to use tools effectively can do if they have the willingness to learn and the ability and drive to spend lots of hours tinkering around with the tools. It also seems obvious to me that you need to be introspective in order to produce art that has something of substance to it. This is ALSO something that anyone, regardless of their type preferences, can do if they are willing to take some time out every day to contemplate what they think is worth valuing and saying, and why they believe it has value, and how they can express that directly visually (as with representational art) or through the use of symbolic color or form. Sensing and Intuition work nicely hand in hand for every artist who is serious about creating something of value that will touch people’s minds and hearts. It also seems obvious that the works of art most beloved by people all over the world (the kind people pay good money to see exhibits of in museums) tend to be the sort that combines keen sensory awareness and quality technique with an equally-as-keen introspection and awareness of something worth valuing – something that gives the viewer a visual message worth paying attention to.


    Since joining this list in September, I’ve tried my best to NOT get caught up in arguments that smack of type bias, because I hate feeling like I have to defend my preferences against insults on a daily basis. But this particular bias against Sensors and art strikes deeply at the heart of who I am. I can’t imagine NOT being obsessed with creating visual imagery that talks to viewers about what I value. It’s an essential part of who I am, and it always has been. I’m truly baffled that so manny people have been brainwashed (?) into believing that “N” equals creativity, when every day I see people who obviously prefer Sensing thinking up innovative, fresh ideas that work to improve real life situations, as well as those who love to make memorable visual statements about what they believe is worth valuing. It really makes me want to ask those who perpetrate the bias, ”What planet do you live on? Because you and I don’t seem to be living in the same world.”

    At any rate, because of this, I’d like propose a new way of looking about art and creativity: Suppose for a second that it has nothing to do with either S or N specifically, and that creativity can simply be defined as the drive and ability to initiate positive change. This drive can be the result of feeling dissatisfied or restless with the status-quo. Or, it can be the result of noticing patterns and connecting ideas together to form a meta-perspective that will solve a problem either here-and-now or in the future. No matter how you define it, it seems to be about noticing a need for change and going about finding ways of implementing that change. This is something that is not related to any one set of type preferences.

    It does seem obvious that creative people – the ones who are most comfortable acting on their drive to initiate positive change—tend to be people who are comfortable living outside their comfort ranges. I would guess that they tend to be people who not only have an interest in developing their lesser-preferred cognitive functions, but that they welcome opportunities to learn, period. So it’s no wonder that when we see work by an artist whose technical virtuosity is astounding AND the message behind his or her art very thought-provoking or moving, it’s not going to be easy to correctly type that artist, unless you’re just into what I call “vanity typing “ – which is, convincing yourself that everyone whose life or whose work you admire has preferences just like your own.

    I really hope someday to see an end to the constant belittling of the capabilities of those of us who prefer Sensing. It would thrill me to see more people on this list truly understanding that everyone uses both sensing and intuition, and that everyone is capable of pursuing every activity that interests them and that all human beings are capable of, including acting on the basic human drive to initiate positive change, and to create visual works of art.

    Thanks for listening. I welcome thoughtful comments. (Insults, not so much...)


    Sarah
    ISFP
    Sarah,

    I totally agree with you. My husband is ISFP, and I think one could easily argue that he has a very keen sense regarding these things. Much more so than I have. He's the one who gets the furniture, decorations, etc. He's the one into art history and historical analysis. Hell, I always ask him if I look decent before I go out of the house in the morning - damned if I know. And in many ways, he is much more bright, creative and artistic than me.

    We are both capable, intelligent and creative but in very different ways, which is good because then we can complement each other.

    He has this uncanny ability to make spontaneous comebacks, act on the spur of the moment and perceive the beauty in everyday life with a really wonderful optimism. He thinks practically (most of the time). He's creative in a very 'real' sense. He can take advantage of situations and act accordingly in precisely the right way. He is brilliant in one particular area.

    I, on the other hand, have more 'fanciful' creativity. My intelligence jumps from one topic to the next as my enthusiasm leaps from one thing to another; it is not constant. So I am a jack of all trades, insofar as I know a little bit about almost every subject. Often, I'm not grounded in this world, which means I see a variety of possibilities - I'm multitalented and can do multiple things at once. I often don't even notice the real world. However, I can plan things in advance in a brilliant way; many times people tell me I'm a natural organizer (thanks to a relatively good Te).

    Eh, so what does that mean? Well, you have a choice. You can kill each other and demean each other by saying the other one is a stupid ass for not having the same strengths you have, or you can complement each other.

    What does that mean concretely?

    a) He wakes me up to the beauty in the world around me; I wake him up to fanciful imagination.
    b) He organizes getting things like furniture, paintings, etc. and advises me on new styles; I organize things like paying the bills, getting the money, organizing how things are set up.
    c) He can react spontaneously to take advantage of the moment; I can open him up to new ideas or ways of thinking.
    d) He helps me to come back down to earth and be more rational; I help him to become more open and emotionally expressive.

    Among other things.

    So in essence, I agree. S's aren't less valuable - in fact, they are just as valuable and in case of balancing out our weaknesses, more valuable.

    You hang in there and don't let these farts get you down.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  5. #65
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    I think the reason you've seen too much of this attitude, is the "SP = art" stereotype. You see, there probably are many Ns here who feel like they are capable of making art too, and they have been defending their skills against the Keirseyan stereotype. He actually says that NFs try art because they see it romantic, but soon get tired of it since their tactical intelligence is so bad. To me this sounds like such a harsh way to put it that I might myself try to fight the stereotype... I do make art. I don't know if it's fine or anything, but I do make it. No keirsey come here and tell me otherwise. (actually I do get bored a lot, but then I get back to it in few months or so....)

    Nolla, what you've written is a good example of why I believe Keirsey's descriptions tend to be limiting rather than freeing. I totally agree with you that all types can and do produce art, and that no type description is helpful if it presumes you have no interest in activities you actually enjoy. Keep at it! (more artsits = a better world!)

    By the way, by "fine" art, I simply mean art created for its' own sake -- art produced to visually convey a message that matters to the artist in some way. In contrast to that, graphic design and purely utilitarian craftsmanship are usually called "applied arts", at least in the US.


    Sarah
    ISFP

  6. #66
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Sarah,

    I totally agree with you. My husband is ISFP, and I think one could easily argue that he has a very keen sense regarding these things. Much more so than I have. He's the one who gets the furniture, decorations, etc. He's the one into art history and historical analysis. Hell, I always ask him if I look decent before I go out of the house in the morning - damned if I know. And in many ways, he is much more bright, creative and artistic than me.

    We are both capable, intelligent and creative but in very different ways, which is good because then we can complement each other.

    He has this uncanny ability to make spontaneous comebacks, act on the spur of the moment and perceive the beauty in everyday life with a really wonderful optimism. He thinks practically (most of the time). He's creative in a very 'real' sense. He can take advantage of situations and act accordingly in precisely the right way. He is brilliant in one particular area.

    I, on the other hand, have more 'fanciful' creativity. My intelligence jumps from one topic to the next as my enthusiasm leaps from one thing to another; it is not constant. So I am a jack of all trades, insofar as I know a little bit about almost every subject. Often, I'm not grounded in this world, which means I see a variety of possibilities - I'm multitalented and can do multiple things at once. I often don't even notice the real world. However, I can plan things in advance in a brilliant way; many times people tell me I'm a natural organizer (thanks to a relatively good Te).

    Eh, so what does that mean? Well, you have a choice. You can kill each other and demean each other by saying the other one is a stupid ass for not having the same strengths you have, or you can complement each other.

    What does that mean concretely?

    a) He wakes me up to the beauty in the world around me; I wake him up to fanciful imagination.
    b) He organizes getting things like furniture, paintings, etc. and advises me on new styles; I organize things like paying the bills, getting the money, organizing how things are set up.
    c) He can react spontaneously to take advantage of the moment; I can open him up to new ideas or ways of thinking.
    d) He helps me to come back down to earth and be more rational; I help him to become more open and emotionally expressive.

    Among other things.

    So in essence, I agree. S's aren't less valuable - in fact, they are just as valuable and in case of balancing out our weaknesses, more valuable.

    You hang in there and don't let these farts get you down.

    Thank you, that was beautiful! (by the way, my NF hubby takes care of our finances too -- he knows me too well to trust me with them...)

    Sarah
    ISFP

  7. #67
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    I think that many types of art actually need S in significant amount but there is no reason that N can't be artist.

  8. #68
    Scream down the boulevard LadyJaye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Any type can be an artist. Although I think type affects how an artist approaches their art and what the final product looks like.
    Exactly. S and N have no bearing on one's ability to be artistic. Pink is an N, and draws some of the best pictures I've ever seen, in my unbiased opinion.

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  9. #69
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    *Laughs as Jaye rips the thread apart*

  10. #70
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Is this your defense mechanism against possible future comments saying you are favoring your own type in any given situation?

    There's no way around the fact there are more Ns than Ss around here.
    i just say it because its fun haha
    and slightly true from time to time.
    i don't favor any type
    is it a defense mechanism of sorts...sure i guess if thats how you wanna take it
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

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