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  1. #21
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    Fair point. Given the reality of life and the world as it is today, it's an impossibility - on a largescale/cultural level. But it kind of depends on what element you're looking at, and how you're defining 'equal', as I'm not sure how you're defining it. I might have a different answer, depending.

    Perhaps I'm speaking on more a philosophical level -- more the buddhist approach/respect/love for all life...
    The reduction to 'equal' could mean 'the same as', and it is next to impossible to treat them like a human, since they aren't human...

    However, even ignoring that, as a society, we engage in wholesale slaughter of animals. If such a thing occured in a human society, our reactions would be vastly different (FWIW, if I remember correctly, we would kill the entire human population every couple of years, in terms of how many animals we kill for consumption.)

    In that sense, we don't treat them equally in terms of respect or honor their right to life... certainly not as we do with humans.

  2. #22
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Are you plotting our demise, AO?
    The history of earth is the part my future job and most of the time there was no humans on earth.
    I simply can't avoid thinkiing about the world without humans even if I want to.
    But it isn't that I don't enjoy in this kind of thinking. So the situation is actually Win/Win.

  3. #23
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    ^ if you knew how I treat humans, you might find that statement less remarkable...

    I'm talking theories/justifications not practicalities - check out my type
    Ha - touche'.

    I always thought an N rejected benchmark disparities that separated theory from practice?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    The reduction to 'equal' could mean 'the same as', and it is next to impossible to treat them like a human, since they aren't human...

    However, even ignoring that, as a society, we engage in wholesale slaughter of animals. If such a thing occured in a human society, our reactions would be vastly different (FWIW, if I remember correctly, we would kill the entire human population every couple of years, in terms of how many animals we kill for consumption.)

    In that sense, we don't treat them equally in terms of respect or honor their right to life... certainly not as we do with humans.
    Nicely said.

  4. #24
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    The reduction to 'equal' could mean 'the same as', and it is next to impossible to treat them like a human, since they aren't human...

    However, even ignoring that, as a society, we engage in wholesale slaughter of animals. If such a thing occured in a human society, our reactions would be vastly different (FWIW, if I remember correctly, we would kill the entire human population every couple of years, in terms of how many animals we kill for consumption.)

    In that sense, we don't treat them equally in terms of respect or honor their right to life... certainly not as we do with humans.
    I asked about 'equality' because I was curious about the examples you'd bring up.

    On the other hand, one could look at it is natural predator/prey relationships. Obviously it's not 'natural' anymore - we're not going out and hunting our food. But as you know, the animal kingdom is very much about death, as well as life. Consuming other animals/plants for sustenance and survival. One could argue that the survival aspect of it is not about 'equality', no? It's a separate thing.

    Just like if I were out hiking, and was killed by a bear or mountain lion, well...there's a certain...natural-ness to that. Not that I want to be killed in that manner.. ;-)

    Edit: The inequality now is that humans have effectively removed themselves from the rest of life, and in many ways, no longer have to play the 'survival' game in the way that all other lifeforms must.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  5. #25
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    On the other hand, one could look at it is natural predator/prey relationships. Obviously it's not 'natural' anymore - we're not going out and hunting our food. But as you know, the animal kingdom is very much about death, as well as life. Consuming other animals/plants for sustenance and survival. One could argue that the survival aspect of it is not about 'equality', no? It's a separate thing.

    Just like if I were out hiking, and was killed by a bear or mountain lion, well...there's a certain...natural-ness to that. Not that I want to be killed in that manner.. ;-)
    That's true, the definition of equality can reverse itself. We could consider ourselves animals, just like them. That is also part of the dissonance that happens.

    We consider ourselves special, evolved... not mere animals and facing that it might not be true causes dissonance. It can be resolved in very few ways... That we are animals, like them, but at the top of the food chain. Doing to them what they do us justifies it (I can't wait for the dissonance if we meet a superior race that enslaves us...). Others justify their position (God-given, Humans are inherently superior). And others reframe their position, such as being vegetarian or dismissing it from thought.

    This brings us back to the inferior part. Under a 'natural' point of view, we are clearly the dominant species. By virtue of this, we have enslaved/kill animals in the trillions, at whim. It may be a heightened form of natural equality. That frames us as "one of them, and therefore equal", but then it is difficult to call that "equal" even so, given our absolute dominance.


    The dissonance continues, too. Each version of resolution has additional natural conclusions. If you believe that it is natural to be a predator, then you embrace the notion that the value of life is defined by the difference in power, even in human society. If not, we come face to face with the reality that we do engage in willful violence and 'murder' of animals - and we need a way to discharge that guilt. If we do see them as inferior, we can easily apply it to humans as well. How do we draw the line, why do we draw it? Equality remains a thin line - it certainly isn't "unnatural" to kill our own species, yet now we have the concept of 'human rights'... do you give that up when reducing us to animals? Not so easy to answer, in the end.

    It's a hell of a lot of dissonance, and it all stems with the identification with animal life.

  6. #26
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    That's true, the definition of equality can reverse itself. We could consider ourselves animals, just like them. That is also part of the dissonance that happens.

    We consider ourselves special, evolved... not mere animals and facing that it might not be true causes dissonance. It can be resolved in very few ways... That we are animals, like them, but at the top of the food chain. Doing to them what they do us justifies it (I can't wait for the dissonance if we meet a superior race that enslaves us...). Others justify their position (God-given, Humans are inherently superior). And others reframe their position, such as being vegetarian or dismissing it from thought.

    This brings us back to the inferior part. Under a 'natural' point of view, we are clearly the dominant species. By virtue of this, we have enslaved/kill animals in the trillions, at whim. It may be a heightened form of natural equality. That frames us as "one of them, and therefore equal", but then it is difficult to call that "equal" even so, given our absolute dominance.


    The dissonance continues, too. Each version of resolution has additional natural conclusions. If you believe that it is natural to be a predator, then you embrace the notion that the value of life is defined by the difference in power, even in human society. If not, we come face to face with the reality that we do engage in willful violence and 'murder' of animals - and we need a way to discharge that guilt. If we do see them as inferior, we can easily apply it to humans as well. How do we draw the line, why do we draw it? Equality remains a thin line - it certainly isn't "unnatural" to kill our own species, yet now we have the concept of 'human rights'... do you give that up when reducing us to animals? Not so easy to answer, in the end.

    It's a hell of a lot of dissonance, and it all stems with the identification with animal life.
    All good points, thanks for posting them. I agree...dissonance. Sums it up nicely. Countless topics could be raised on all of this..a spiderweb of connections, inevitable conclusions that can be drawn, and implications depending on which way you look at things and how far down the line you analyze all of it - you listed several right there.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  7. #27
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Our culture lures us into a fragmented life. When we see that things are actually interconnected and an integrated whole, we feel joy regarding the discovery and profound despair regarding our current state.

  8. #28
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    Our culture lures us into a fragmented life. When we see that things are actually interconnected and an integrated whole, we feel joy regarding the discovery and profound despair regarding our current state.
    It must be tough to feel stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    The history of earth is the part my future job and most of the time there was no humans on earth.
    I simply can't avoid thinkiing about the world without humans even if I want to.
    But it isn't that I don't enjoy in this kind of thinking. So the situation is actually Win/Win.
    Good for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    I always thought an N rejected benchmark disparities that separated theory from practice? .
    No. A J might tho'.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    as a society, we engage in wholesale slaughter of animals. If such a thing occured in a human society, our reactions would be vastly different (FWIW, if I remember correctly, we would kill the entire human population every couple of years, in terms of how many animals we kill for consumption.)

    In that sense, we don't treat them equally in terms of respect or honor their right to life... certainly not as we do with humans.
    War? Genocide? Murder? Rape? Just because the numbers are not as shocking doesn't make "Man's inhumanity to Man" any the less so.

    Just because we don't treat them as equals, doesn't mean that they aren't our equals in the sense that we are all mortal creatures sharing the same space-time.

    Unless you believe in one of the Creation mythologies, what justification is there for believing human beings to be superior? Do we say trout are superior to ants? Birds are superior to crocodiles? Hedgehogs are superior to mice? Framed in that way, it makes no sense to talk about superiority of one species over another.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    If not, we come face to face with the reality that we do engage in willful violence and 'murder' of animals - and we need a way to discharge that guilt. If we do see them as inferior, we can easily apply it to humans as well. How do we draw the line, why do we draw it? Equality remains a thin line - it certainly isn't "unnatural" to kill our own species, yet now we have the concept of 'human rights'... do you give that up when reducing us to animals? Not so easy to answer, in the end.

    It's a hell of a lot of dissonance, and it all stems with the identification with animal life.
    Yes, humans exploit animals. Animals exploit each other. 'Twas ever thus. The diversity and beauty we get so mawkish about wouldn't exist without the teeth and claws. Why do we need to invent some mythology to make ourselves feel justified in a kill or be killed environment?

  9. #29
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Your reacting to a uncomfortble revelation. It is a similar experience for rational and hypra-logical beings stumbling upon there instincts and long buried supertitions.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  10. #30
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    Ok, so I have been taking a physical antropology class all fine and dandy right. Until we started to study primate behavior. Ive never been much of an animal person, and I never thought I was a monkey, so why should this knowledge be different right.

    So, today we are sitting there watching a video on Jane Goodall and her chimps, and I cant stand it.

    What is this feeling?

    Im not offended not angry. But my chest is tight and intense. I don't want to talk to anyone, I just wish I could run into a hole somewhere, but I am very calm. It just hurts in my chest.

    Its not the animals I really am not an activist or anything so this just doesnt make sense to me.

    Why does primate behavior effect me so significantly?

    Werid I know.


    I would almost comapre it to sadness, WTF?

    What do you think,did we nail the thing or we are not even close to the truth?

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