User Tag List

First 12345 Last

Results 21 to 30 of 43

  1. #21
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Enneagram
    1w2
    Posts
    5,514

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Natrushka View Post
    Is it possible motivation is less of an issue for Js? Just curious.
    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Yes.

    Or the illusion of motivation. Either way... Yes.
    This is going to sound contradictory but my lack of motivation isn't from a lack of motivation. I have very clear goals about what I want to do with my life, I just feel overwhelmed with options. It's like looking at a mess and wondering where to start first. I know my end point, it's just picking out the right path.

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post

    I can't speak for all Ps, but if a task is mundane or routine then INFPs are going to procrastinate on it. INFPs prefer to be motivated by a sense of inspiration, love for the mission, or urgency.

    INFPs need a task to have some kind of emotional content if they're going to stay on top of it. For example, INFPs will let their own routine work languish undone; but they will work tirelessly to help a friend with the friend's work, because work to aid another person is a feel-good exercise for the INFP. When it comes to the INFP's own work, an approaching deadline can actually be a boon because it inspires a sense of crisis and a crisis atmosphere may finally get the INFP to focus on the task.

    INFPs pretty much need to impose organizational systems consciously and deliberately in their lives, or routine tasks won't get done and their house will be a shambles. One of the famous stereotypes of INFPs is that they hate to invite people to their homes because their homes are so messy. An INTJ acquaintance of mine once said that she could identify INFPs in the college dorms by their bedrooms: There was always a "rat's nest" of stuff piled by the bed on the bedstand or on the floor.

    The other alternative for INFPs is to strip themselves of most earthly belongings to simplify life and keep clutter from overrunning their lives. And a lot of INFPs go that way (including me when I was younger). But without the accessories needed for normal socializing, that can leave them drifting outside of the mainstream and unattached to society at large.

    In my case, seven years in the military accustomed me to keeping things relatively organized and clean; years of doing admin stuff taught me to organize and file paperwork and keep good records; and learning to "putter" has made it possible to keep on top of all the chores of handling a house, a yard, a couple cars, a full-time job, keeping up a social life, spending time with my wife, going out dancing a couple times a week, etc. I always felt overwhelmed by even very light routine tasks when I was younger; but nowadays I would say that I get a lot of enjoyment out of keeping on top of all the routine stuff and don't find it a burden at all.

    But I would say that--in my case anyway--it's less a question of motivation and more about learning and imposing some J-oriented organizational tools (along with developing an S-oriented appreciation of the activity of "puttering"). Even nowadays, I'm not "motivated" to do routine tasks; I'm just very well-organized and have developed some good habits so that they're easy to do.

    FL
    This actually describes my way of doing things very accurately.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #22
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    This is going to sound contradictory but my lack of motivation isn't from a lack of motivation. I have very clear goals about what I want to do with my life, I just feel overwhelmed with options. It's like looking at a mess and wondering where to start first. I know my end point, it's just picking out the right path.
    It is, of course, a generalisation... and not all Js are the same. However, a solid J's option paralysis is nothing like a solid P's paralysis... It's night and day - the whole trait revolves around "the deciding" nature of the J.

    J's sometimes have problems finding what to do, I agree. There are times when my GF, a rather strong J, does crash and gets cranky because there is nothing for her to do. However, compared to the windstorm of activity that she generates when she has something to do... which is most of the time... It is really different than my own laid back approach. I may go into a frenzy for a few hours... maybe even a few days... but the interest fades away before I've finished what I'm doing.

    Where a J will hate painting, but will do an entire house... inside and out... with trim... just because it "needs" to be done, a P will struggle every minute of every day, finding excuse after excuse not to finish it... and eventually just redefine "need" to "it's fine the way it is" or "it won't cost too much for someone else to do it".

  3. #23
    RDF
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    It is, of course, a generalisation... and not all Js are the same. However, a solid J's option paralysis is nothing like a solid P's paralysis... It's night and day - the whole trait revolves around "the deciding" nature of the J.
    My wife and I are both INFPs, and it's funny to contrast the two of us on this issue. For example, the issue of "closure": I have a healthy respect for closing up one task before moving onto the next. My wife is the opposite. She keeps every task open and finds a lot of difficulty bringing even the simplest tasks to closure.

    As for me:

    I spent seven years in the Marines (an ISTJ environment), and I learned the importance of getting closure on a task. In an ISTJ environment, there comes a time when a task is considered "done," even if it's not perfect or even particularly complete. You pronounce it "good enough for government work" and you pack it up and put it away. There's a strong ethic of closing old business up and putting it away before (or so that) you can move on to new business.

    As an INFP that was a new concept for me, and I must say I was rather grateful to learn that lesson. Previously, for example in high school, any project dragged on into eternity because I couldn't get closure or figure out when it was "done." So every new assignment, no matter how simple, was just one more nightmare potentially stretching into infinity, piled onto all the other current nightmares ongoing from other classes.

    Nowadays, based on my experience in the Marines, I have a good sense of how long a project should take and when a project is done and a healthy respect for the principle of closing up an old project before starting on a new one.

    As for my wife:

    My wife is still more or less where I was at in high school. She didn't have a formative experience like the military to teach her how to recognize and respect closure. If anything, her roles as wife and homemaker in her previous marriages pulled her in the opposite direction. As wife and homemaker, her job was to preserve things and keep them open for nest-building and family history purposes. If her daughter scribbled a third-grade art project, it couldn't be thrown out; it has to be preserved in a time capsule in case the daughter might want her childhood scribblings one day as an adult.

    So here's how my wife handles a typical task. She has a pile of art magazines on the floor and wants to put them in order them by date, put them in a magazine box, and put the box in place our bookshelves. But while stacking them by date, she notices that two monthly issues are missing. So she pages through a couple issues to see if she can determine if there were in fact magazines issued for those two months. As she is doing that, she notices a couple art patterns of interest that she would like to copy, and she tags them with sticky tags, and makes a mental note to bring them to the copy place.

    At this point the task is beginning to stretch into eternity. Now she no longer wants to put the magazines in the magazine box, because once they are filed she might forget to look for the other issues or bring the patterns to the copy place. So the magazine are returned to the pile on the floor. She also doesn't want to go to the copy place, because two issues are still potentially missing and they might have interesting patterns too. And she can't find the two missing issues (or even determine whether they are potentially missing) because everything is in a mess on the floor.

    At that point the task becomes overwhelming, so she wanders off to work on some artwork in progress. The next time she wanders into the room and notices the pile, she can't even look at the pile. She has no need for closure on the project of filing the magazines, so there's no impetus to do anything about it; and she can't progress on the project of filing the magazines because it just generates new projects and obligations. Eventually the project becomes repugnant to her and she refuses to see the pile anymore. It becomes invisible to her.

    It's really simple math. Her need for closure (the desire to simple finish up the project) is zero. So any other stray consideration that might require the project to stay open will take precedence. Even if the desire to copy patterns and find missing issues is minimal at, let's say, only 2 out of 100, in her head the need for keeping the project open (2) is still infinitely larger than the need to complete the project (0).

    In the end, there are ways to get around that. When the clutter around the house gets to be too much, I may put my foot down and she'll accept that my need for closure outweighs her desire to keep things open (at least temporarily).

    Also, there are places in life where my wife is more organized than me. (She is probably better at time and deadlines than me.) So I don't mean to point the finger at my wife.

    But the above example is one way (out of many) that an absence of natural desire for closure can overwhelm INFPs and make it impossible to do even the simplest tasks around the house. It gets to the point where it takes outside influences (looming deadlines, a complaining spouse) to provide the stimulus for closure. But then the INFP gets stuck in the trap of permanent crisis management: always scrambling to meet deadlines, always behind on everything, seemingly never able to get clear of old business and try something new in life because he or she is so far behind on previous commitments and projects. Lots of stress, lots of bother, lots of feeling out of control and unfulfilled.

    FL

  4. #24
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    is so far behind on previous commitments and projects. Lots of stress, lots of bother, lots of feeling out of control and unfulfilled.
    You just quoted what I said to my GF a while back. I'm a rather extreme P who has never had to really apply himself to make do. Until now - I've hit the barrier of my natural ability... and I was whining to my GF endlessly for a couple of months... and over the last few weeks have hit quite the low with stress and depressive lows. Even knowing what causes it makes it difficult to change...

    But that is exactly what I said to her when I explain what was happening. It's so incredibly unhealthy... and an awesome example of how it sets in.

  5. #25
    RDF
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    ... and an awesome example of how it sets in.
    Thanks!

    I agree that it's tremendously unhealthy, and I see a lot of it around these P-oriented MBTI message boards. But I know how hard it is for strong Ps to make the necessary changes in their lives to get some alleviation.

    For example, I try to help out my wife and set up some organizational systems for her or just show her how easy it is to cut through the clutter with the right "attitude" and priorities. But we've been living together 7 1/2 years and it's still a struggle for her. (We still have Christmas lights and decorations scattered around the living room. :steam: )

    I think strong Ps just need to try to register how much this affect their lives and then try to start chipping away at it. It's very much under their control, but old habits die hard.

    It's also worth noting that strong Js have problems of their own. Too strong an orientation in either direction is a problem.

    Moderation in all things.

    FL

  6. #26
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I think strong Ps just need to try to register how much this affect their lives and then try to start chipping away at it. It's very much under their control, but old habits die hard.
    It's under control to a certain extent... It depends on how strong it really is. Using conscientiousness from FFM rather than the J/P divide, anyone under ~20 is going to be in for a hard time, simply because it cycles down, similar to depression. Ps are like a manic form of motivation - you suddenly kick it into high gear where the mind shuts off and you just fly into activity... but that goes just as suddenly as it starts and you fall into a slump.

    Unlike feeling the 'blues' after an event, the chronic stress of doing something when you don't have the motivation to do it decreases the natural energy that Ps can get when they get into something. This suddenly leaves them with no energy to do anything... and that means that less and less gets done, more and more stress builds...

    It's a bit more than a habit. The breaking point is to make sure that you don't start the cycle... which is often triggered by a flurry of activity and going into a slump. At this point it is natural, but if things continue to build... yah. It's over.

    It's also worth noting that strong Js have problems of their own. Too strong an orientation in either direction is a problem.
    It's true that Js have a few... issues... But the reality is that they dominate in nearly every 'good' walk of life, from jobs to relationships, from money to happiness, from school work to hobbies. P's got screwed over on this trait. About the only pure advantages is in creativity... and of course, if you are a moderate, this allows you to be creative and not fall under a deluge of deadlines For the most part, being moderate is way better. Way way better.

    It may be better to be a P with J skills than a J with P skills (Ps are far more innate - one doesn't learn "P" skills with ease, if at all... You temper J's drive, heh)... But Ps require a certain amount of drive and conditioning to learn Js. Military training works, so long as it doesn't break you... but that's heavy conditioning - it's not common... and Ps can snap under the conditioning, causing a certain amount of... behavioral issues.

  7. #27
    Pareo cattus Natrushka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    1,213

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Where a J will hate painting, but will do an entire house... inside and out... with trim... just because it "needs" to be done, a P will struggle every minute of every day, finding excuse after excuse not to finish it... and eventually just redefine "need" to "it's fine the way it is" or "it won't cost too much for someone else to do it".
    ... and then there's the colour of paint decision.

    This signature left intentionally blank.

    Really.

  8. #28
    RDF
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    It's under control to a certain extent... It depends on how strong it really is. Using conscientiousness from FFM rather than the J/P divide, anyone under ~20 is going to be in for a hard time, simply because it cycles down, similar to depression. Ps are like a manic form of motivation - you suddenly kick it into high gear where the mind shuts off and you just fly into activity... but that goes just as suddenly as it starts and you fall into a slump.

    Unlike feeling the 'blues' after an event, the chronic stress of doing something when you don't have the motivation to do it decreases the natural energy that Ps can get when they get into something. This suddenly leaves them with no energy to do anything... and that means that less and less gets done, more and more stress builds...

    It's a bit more than a habit. The breaking point is to make sure that you don't start the cycle... which is often triggered by a flurry of activity and going into a slump. At this point it is natural, but if things continue to build... yah. It's over.
    True, and a very good point. There's the physiological side of these ups and downs, which may provide physical and chemical reinforcement for up/down cycling. I agree it's not just a simple mental decision creating or resolving these problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    It's true that Js have a few... issues... But the reality is that they dominate in nearly every 'good' walk of life, from jobs to relationships, from money to happiness, from school work to hobbies. P's got screwed over on this trait. About the only pure advantages is in creativity... and of course, if you are a moderate, this allows you to be creative and not fall under a deluge of deadlines For the most part, being moderate is way better. Way way better.

    It may be better to be a P with J skills than a J with P skills (Ps are far more innate - one doesn't learn "P" skills with ease, if at all... You temper J's drive, heh)... But Ps require a certain amount of drive and conditioning to learn Js. Military training works, so long as it doesn't break you... but that's heavy conditioning - it's not common... and Ps can snap under the conditioning, causing a certain amount of... behavioral issues.
    The statistics give Js the overall edge, and I agree with that when looking at the meta level measured by the statistics.

    I would add, however, that in real life these influences operate very much at the margins. IOW, in practice Ps and Js both do well in the workplace and the world. It's just that Js might do a little better when measured according to raw indices of income or whatever. But it's not to say that Ps can't succeed and be happy. (Not disagreeing with you or the statstics, just playing with the emphasis.)

    Also, statistical results depend on what you measure. For example, Ps may actually find greater contentment in the workplace (where they have to learn J skills) than in the home where things are more amorphous. The workplace provides a structure that Ps can learn and eventually excel at. Home, by comparison, may continue to seem structureless and baffling. I see this a lot with Ps. Some Ps that I know are the ultimate workaholics by virtue of paying no attention to the clock (working long hours) and getting positive reinforcement at work for their productivity while their home environment simply baffles them and seems unmanageable.

    Those same Ps may fall apart when the company structure changes. When a company changes leadership a lot of the older staff may choose that time to retire because they don't want to deal with the change in corporate philosophy. And I've seen Ps affected by this as much as Js. Having learned to excel in one corporate structure, older Ps may react negatively to the imposition of a new corporate structure that they'll have to figure out anew.

    I've also seen this in the military. The rigid structure of the military may drive some kids batty (I saw a few kids driven over the edge when I was in). But it can also provide structure and skills and a haven for kids who couldn't find a niche or security at home or elsewhere. When I was in the military I saw troubled ESFP and ESTP gang members remake themselves and get a new lease on life in the military. That was also my own story to some extent.

    I'm not suggesting that all Ps to go into the military; I agree that that that would be a radical way to resolve a minor problem.

    But that's kind of why I was pushing the concept of "puttering" in my first post in the thread. It seems tough for Ps to just implement J solutions out of thin air. So maybe if Ps address the issue of nonproductivity in part by accessing their S, that will help a bit to get them moving. Obviously, though, puttering has to serve the end of productivity. Otherwise it's just more aimless activity contributing to clutter in one's life.

    FL

  9. #29
    RDF
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Natrushka View Post
    ... and then there's the colour of paint decision.
    Lol! My wife makes those decisions. I want nothing to do with them.

    FL

  10. #30
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I would add, however, that in real life these influences operate very much at the margins. IOW, in practice Ps and Js both do well in the workplace and the world. It's just that Js might do a little better when measured according to raw indices of income or whatever. But it's not to say that Ps can't succeed and be happy. (Not disagreeing with you or the statstics, just playing with the emphasis.)
    Well, I can't totally agree. However, I do know that MBTI has a weaker correlation to these things, so I can't disagree either

    Also, statistical results depend on what you measure. For example, Ps may actually find greater contentment in the workplace (where they have to learn J skills) than in the home where things are more amorphous. The workplace provides a structure that Ps can learn and eventually excel at. Home, by comparison, may continue to seem structureless and baffling. I see this a lot with Ps. Some Ps that I know are the ultimate workaholics by virtue of paying no attention to the clock (working long hours) and getting positive reinforcement at work for their productivity while their home environment simply baffles them and seems unmanageable.
    Far as I know, the three measures that for certain are correlated with being conscientiousness are job satisfaction, job competence and rank. That's pretty damning for P's in the workplace. It also shows a significant improvement in academic performance and similar environments.

    However, you are right about the margin... namely that a good ~50% of the population isn't strong enough either way to really have it affect them significantly. However, once you get into the midrange ~20%, it does become very noticeable. And once you hit the extremes, you begin to see some real issues (on both sides now). So most of the population doesn't suffer for being one way or the other in the first place... and those that are midrange tend to be able adapt most of the time.

    The reverse is true for postions however! For the most part, J's strive in far more situations than Ps do... or rather, they are far more competent in a larger pool of situations and more likely to find satisfaction in what they are doing regardless. Ps can and do find the perfect job for them... but it's far rarer.

    To put it another way, Ps that do well embrace J mentality... most of the time. Js that do well tend to just not be overly J. Embracing their P, or being 'softer' and less headstrong, is not nearly as needed to get ahead or find satisfaction in what they are doing.

    I'm not suggesting that all Ps to go into the military; I agree that that that would be a radical way to resolve a minor problem.
    Yup And if it's a major problem, it might not be beneficial either. There is a big difference between being a moderate P and deviant... and being a strong P, cognitively.

Similar Threads

  1. [Fi] How do you get in tune with yourself?
    By gretch in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 44
    Last Post: 07-24-2016, 07:13 AM
  2. Organization, how do you get it done? (Ps welcome)
    By raz in forum Academics and Careers
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 02-02-2009, 02:46 AM
  3. [MBTItm] How do you get along with the SJs?
    By nolla in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 06-05-2008, 03:13 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO