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  1. #21
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    It seems that people very often wish to be 7s. You have to remember that while 7s are painted as the happy-go-lucky types, they have just as many hurdles to overcome if they want to avoid misery.

    I never wish to be another type. I know they all have strengths and weaknesses, joys and sorrows, and I figure that if I became another type, it would alter my point of view to such a degree that I'd probably lose sigth of what I had previously wanted, and I'd end up wishing myself to be yet another type.
    Well put.
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  2. #22
    Senior Member placebo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    How do you know?
    How do I know.... I'm not a very 'healthy' nine?

    By reading descriptions and identifying with them... such as the link Xander provided (Enn9styls2.html)


    Healthy Nines are gently dynamic, suffused with a highly integrated sense of self and implicit mission. Most are also flexible and able to state blunt difficult truths in useful ways that somehow don't make others defensive.

    When less healthy, a Nine's modesty devolves into self-concealment. They begin to merge blindly with the wishes of others and play the roles their environment wants them to play. In the process, they erase their own needs, priorities and ambitions, hiding their opinions and preferences to keep an apparent peace. The more a Nine absents herself from her own life, however, the more passive, unfocused and ambivalent she becomes.

    Less healthy Nines tend to see all sides of a situation and identify equally with each outside perspective. They often focus on absurd or irrelevant details and lose the big picture or forget the original purpose of a task. They can be overly responsible but under-perform, obsessively complicating simple tasks even as they minimize the consequence of not getting important things done. Going in circles relieves them of the necessity to make decisions and personal choices, to take responsibility for having a self that they think might be rejected by others.
    Trying too hard to keep the peace perhaps, and getting lost in the process a little bit.

  3. #23
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by placebo View Post
    Trying too hard to keep the peace perhaps, and getting lost in the process a little bit.
    I know what you mean! I find it helps to remember to stay grounded, as Nines have a lot of inertial energy. This energy often originates deep in the belly. With a little practice, you can place your focus of attention there - at a spot just below the navel in the centre of the body. If you do this when you're in Peacemaker mode, it stops you from getting lost and allows you to set the direction for others, instead of the other way around!
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  4. #24
    Senior Member Delphyne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    9 here... two wings as far as I can tell.. possibly more 9w8 though.. definitely a strong 6 influence from what I've read.
    As far as I can tell you donīt seem to be passive-aggressive.

    So... errm... what are we all doing here then? Something need negotiating?
    Itīs a nineish gathering, thereīs no such thing as doing. At least not until you reach page 30.

  5. #25
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delphyne View Post
    As far as I can tell you donīt seem to be passive-aggressive.
    Do you have a link to this description? I'm interested where this passive aggressive idea comes from. I was refering more to the realistic side. As far as I'm aware I don't tend to idealise people especially.
    Quote Originally Posted by Delphyne View Post
    Itīs a nineish gathering, thereīs no such thing as doing. At least not until you reach page 30.
    But... but... with 9s I can't poke them to do something... that means I'm stuck!! I'll get bored.. lonely...soo tired....
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #26
    Senior Member Delphyne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Do you have a link to this description? I'm interested where this passive aggressive idea comes from.
    Iīm sorry I donīt have a particular link. Itīs my experience that 9w1s are passive-aggressive, whereas 9w8s arenīt. With 9w1s the anger suppressive energy of the One gets mixed into the Nine. They canīt be angry, because they donīt have a good connection to their instinctual energy or they are afraid of their anger or they despise being angry. They also tend to overinterpret anger. I have known a 9w1 who thought I and another woman were quarreling. Both of us had to reassure the 9w1 that everything is just fine.
    Most of the time 9w8s are very easygoing till they encounter something they donīt like. Normally they will either leave the place or their anger erupts. 9w1s donīt seem to be able to do one of these. They feel powerless and trapped. They can only resist passively. An obligation to do something they donīt want do can also lead them to be passive-aggressive.


    But... but... with 9s I can't poke them to do something... that means I'm stuck!! I'll get bored.. lonely...soo tired....
    Thereīs no need for you to be bored and lonely.
    Grab an One. She will prevent you from being idle. There are always some grievances or injustices who needs to be taken care of. Business before pleasure.
    Grab a Two. She delights in helping you to lead a happy life. Just donīt forget to thank her and to dependent on her.
    Grab a Three. She will coach you to be successful and likes to take your payment.
    Grab a Four. She will show you what an emotional rollercoaster is all about and your happy bored life will end.
    Grab a Five. She will analyze you very thoroughly and you will be multiplicated, dissected, abstracted, and so on.
    Grab a Six. She will rebell, provoke and test your loyality constantly. You wonīt be stuck anymore.
    Donīt grab a Seven. She will forget you as soon as something more exciting comes around.
    Grab an Eight. She will always need people, whom she can dominante.

  7. #27
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delphyne View Post
    Iīm sorry I donīt have a particular link. Itīs my experience that 9w1s are passive-aggressive, whereas 9w8s arenīt.
    Aha. I see. I said balanced wings though...

    May I reference you to the first quote in my sig. It's also quoted as "ENFPs are like all other ENFPs, like some other ENFPs, like no other ENFPs."

    So I see it with 1s.

    I do agree though that on the surface I read like a 9w8 most of the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Delphyne View Post
    With 9w1s the anger suppressive energy of the One gets mixed into the Nine. They canīt be angry, because they donīt have a good connection to their instinctual energy or they are afraid of their anger or they despise being angry. They also tend to overinterpret anger. I have known a 9w1 who thought I and another woman were quarreling. Both of us had to reassure the 9w1 that everything is just fine.
    Okay that's not me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Delphyne View Post
    Most of the time 9w8s are very easygoing till they encounter something they donīt like. Normally they will either leave the place or their anger erupts.
    That's better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Delphyne View Post
    9w1s donīt seem to be able to do one of these. They feel powerless and trapped. They can only resist passively. An obligation to do something they donīt want do can also lead them to be passive-aggressive.
    I don't think I have any passive aggression. It's not something I identify with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Delphyne View Post
    Thereīs no need for you to be bored and lonely.
    Grab an One. She will prevent you from being idle. There are always some grievances or injustices who needs to be taken care of. Business before pleasure.
    Grab a Two. She delights in helping you to lead a happy life. Just donīt forget to thank her and to dependent on her.
    Grab a Three. She will coach you to be successful and likes to take your payment.
    Grab a Four. She will show you what an emotional rollercoaster is all about and your happy bored life will end.
    Grab a Five. She will analyze you very thoroughly and you will be multiplicated, dissected, abstracted, and so on.
    Grab a Six. She will rebell, provoke and test your loyality constantly. You wonīt be stuck anymore.
    Donīt grab a Seven. She will forget you as soon as something more exciting comes around.
    Grab an Eight. She will always need people, whom she can dominante.
    No I meant on this thread. With no one to provoke I'll just end up wandering off and that's not good. I like 9s.. even if it is weird that no one ever properly objects.



    I wonder what it would be like if you could get 9s to argue?

    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #28
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    I am 9w8 sp/so. If you want to try on whether you are, you may want to review some of the topics at the enneagram institute. As for descriptions, like anything else they can be hit and miss. I have been reading over this one again which seems to provide some underlying motivations that are key for me.
    People of enneatype Nine are essentially looking to maintain a sense of peace, harmony and balance and to avoid conflict and disruption. Nines tend to see the best in people, to be fundamentally optimistic about the future, and, when reasonably healthy, to have a calming and grounding effect on those around them. As a general rule, Nines are fairly "easy going;" they adopt a strategy of "going with the flow." They intuitively know how to wait for the openings so that they can slip effortlessly into the stream. Nines don't tend to "sweat the small stuff." On the whole, they are self-effacing, tolerant, even-tempered and likable individuals. Nines aspire to be supportive, loving and gentle and more than any other enneatype, are likely to embody these valuable qualities. Given such a portrait, it might seem difficult to understand what is so problematic about the type Nine fixation.

    The central problem for Nines revolves around the fact that their desire to maintain peace and to avoid conflict is compulsive. As the potential for conflict in life is virtually ubiquitous, the Nine's inability to confront it forcefully and deal with it effectively, leaves the Nine at a serious disadvantage when it comes to living a full, satisfying and honest life. This deeply rooted tendency to avoid discord plays itself out both internally and in the realm of external action, but generally manifests most centrally in close personal relationships, as intimate relationships more than anything else tend to trigger core defenses.

    Many Nines are "successful" when it comes to their interactions with the world. They are frequently productive and often manage to rise through the ranks on the basis of their likeability and reliability without having to engage too forcefully in direct competition. Thus, even in a capitalist economic system, many Nines manage to "succeed" while maintaining an attitude of forbearance and cooperation.

    Nines are not necessarily without ambition either, something easily attested to by the sheer number of leaders who have had a type Nine fixation. Some such Nines are able to take on leadership roles because they wear their fixations lightly. Perhaps they enjoy the benefits of a fortunate upbringing or perhaps their work on themselves has borne fruit. Sometimes Nines who take on leadership roles seem to be the living embodiment of a solution that has been offered to us from the depths of the collective unconscious. They represent the only possible answer to the exigencies of a time in which the forward path cannot be determined by aggressive self-assertion or even by clarity of intellect. Abraham Lincoln, perhaps the greatest of America's presidents, could modestly state "I claim not to have controlled events, but confess plainly that events have controlled me." Healthy Nines are in touch with their depths and are able to maintain their sense of self even in the face of the most forceful opposition or the most appalling conflict. Even as they rule, they serve those they lead.

    Less healthy Nines who take on leadership roles however, tend to adopt a strategy of "muffling" from awareness the likely negative consequences of their actions. Often they surround themselves with like-minded others who reinforce their sense of security and who serve as a buffer from all forms of dissent, thus enabling the Nine to remain insulated. Most of the unhealthy Nine's insulating buffers against reality, however, are actually internal to the psyche. A deeply entranced Nine simply dissociates from whatever is unpleasant or unpalatable, from whatever disturbs his preferred view of the world. Such comfortably numb Nines simply fail to process any information which would be a cause of discomfort or disturbance. About this phenomenon, Naranjo comments, "Not wanting to see, not wanting to be in touch with one's experience is something akin to cognitive laziness, an eclipse of the experiencer or inner witnessing in the person." Unhealthy Nines, even as they take on roles of leadership, which would seem to involve self-assertion, are often actually deeply entrenched in a peculiar form of self-abnegation. Hence we encounter the portrait of the "nice guy," the one who is affable to even the lowliest employee. He has a ready smile and a genial manner. He means no one any harm. But he has just busted the union, slashed the benefits to the school lunch program, or authorized the bombing of Iraq. He heads for his private sanctuary, he mindlessly kisses his wife, he watches the TV. He sleeps well. His conscience is clear. He never assumes any responsibility for the evil he has wrought.

    It is an almost universal rule that those leaders who rise to power in spite of, or even by virtue of their unconsciousness, have managed to do so because they have unwittingly embodied and reflected back the irresponsibility and lack of consciousness of those who brought them to power. About such rulers, it would be fair to say that, even as they rule, they follow those they lead.

    While the above may seem something of an exaggerated portrait, exaggerations often serve to illustrate key points. Virtually all Nines tend to see what they wish to see, to idealize those they love and to ignore whatever would disturb their comfort and peace of mind. These tendencies are not left behind until a Nine is truly healthy. The problem with this approach, of course, is that problems do not cease to exist, simply because the Nine ignores them. They have consequences, often deleterious one, both for the Nine and for those in the Nine's life.

    While some Nines do assume positions of leadership, most Nines are not especially ambitious. They pay their dues to the world but essentially prefer to withdraw from it. They are "home bodies" who are generally devoted to their families, especially to their children. They enjoy their hobbies and appreciate some time to themselves. They generally value simplicity and cultivate the virtue of patience. They are frequently creative in a modest and unassuming way. They adopt an attitude of acceptance towards life. They don't ask for too much; sometimes they ask for too little. At a very deep level, at a level which seldom breaks through to conscious awareness, most Nines simply feel that they don't deserve too much. Nines would do well to develop a certain kind of healthy selfishness, as many of their difficulties turn on the fact that they are too selfless.

    As mentioned above, the Nine's core issues tend to manifest most profoundly in the context of intimate relationships. It is here that the Nine's need to avoid conflict bears its most obvious fruit. Many Nines seem to find it excruciatingly difficult to assert themselves against those they love, even when it comes to trivial matters. They would rather defer to their partner than assert their own preferences. Their preference is not very strong, they reason, whereas the partner is willing to put up a fight. It seems only reasonable to "give in." In that manner, the Nine gets to avoid the unpleasantness of a conflict and vicariously enjoy the pleasure that the partner feels. Nines tend to merge with their partners and to empathetically take on the partner's feelings and desires. This naturally makes it difficult for the Nine to cause hurt or frustration to those they love. On any individual occasion, this policy of appeasement might indeed be reasonable, but as a general policy it does not bode well for either the Nine or the partner of the Nine.

    The problems generated from this policy follow a few predictable patterns. The Nine's partner might actually begin to resent the passivity of the Nine. It can be difficult to respect someone who will not defend boundaries, who will not take a well defined position. Other individuals gladly accept the willingness of the Nine to adopt their agenda and become overtly dominating and, in some cases, even abusive. The Nine might even appear to accept such aggressions against them, although resentment invariably builds beneath the calm and placid surface. Nine's have a difficult time accessing their anger, as anger is the emotion which, in its pure form, signals to us that one of our boundaries has been violated. As Nines tend to have a diffuse sense of their boundaries, they tend also to fall asleep to their anger. The anger exists however and will manifest itself, perhaps in passive-aggressive foot dragging or "checking out" from important engagements. For some Nines, unprocessed anger manifests itself through the development of psychosomatic illnesses. Other Nines experience instances in which pent up anger expresses itself inappropriately and unexpectedly with such a fury that it shocks those on the receiving end. All of these manifestations of anger are naturally a good deal more harmful to the Nine and to the Nine's relationships than expressing it in a way which is appropriate to the needs of the situation. The ability of a Nine to acknowledge anger and recognize and deal with its causes is a pretty good measure of the Nine's general level of health.

    The really crucial problem for type Nine individuals is that they tend to have an inadequate sense of self. This leads to a tendency on the part of Nines to both downplay their own significance and to borrow a sense of significance from others. There is, in fact, a sort of paradox at the heart of the type Nine fixation. At a largely subconscious level, Nines intuitively grasp that the constructed personality, the personality with which most of us identify, is not the true self; it is not who they are. This is, in fact, a very deep truth; the constructed personality is simply that - a construct through which consciousness operates, much of it built out of defenses and reactions to dangers which are no longer present; it is, in a sense, both a limitation and an obscuration. But the constructed personality also serves a necessary function; it gives the individual a base from which to operate, a sense of self, however ultimately flawed and partial. While the constructed self is not ultimately who we are, it is a necessary step towards the development of true individuality. Gurdjieff has this to say: "For inner growth, for work on oneself, a certain development of personality, as well as a certain strength of essence are required. An insufficiently developed personality means that...a man cannot begin to work on himself, he cannot begin to study himself, he cannot begin to struggle with his mechanical habits."

    Without a well developed personality, without a firm sense of self and adequately defined boundaries, the Nine is left in a state of permeability to forces both outside the ego and to those subterranean forces that reside beneath it. Understanding this essential porousness of the ego of enneatype Nine is absolutely essential to an understanding of all of the basic manifestations of the Nine's specific problems and challenges. It is the difficulty that type Nine individuals have in addressing this core issue which is called in the traditional enneagram, the vice of indolence. As already indicated, indolence does not here refer to laziness in the traditional sense, although it can manifest in that manner in some individuals, but to the lack of attention to the most important matter at hand, the lack of attention to what constitutes true work, i.e. the development of a solid sense of self from which the Nine can be truly effective in the world.

    According to the teachings of the traditional enneagram, the essential virtue of each type appears when the fixation or vice weakens. Oscar Ichazo, the father of the modern Enneagram, indicated that the virtue of type Nine was what he called "Holy Love." Nines, even at average levels of health, tend to be kind, compassionate and tolerant individuals; their personalities dimly sense and partially embody the nature of their type specific virtue. True love does involve openness to others and permeability of ego boundaries; it does involve acceptance and forgiveness; it does involve a sense of the interconnectedness of all things, just as Nines have known all along. Like all of the fixations, the type Nine fixation can be viewed as a sort of failed short cut; it can be viewed as the personality's flawed attempt to achieve the true virtue. As type Nine individuals learn to love and honor their own integrity, they are able to extend that love to others in a truly effective and beneficial manner. As they heal themselves, they heal their relationships with others and actively work towards healing the wounds of our ailing planet. Nines are sometimes called "the peacemakers" but they are not really worthy of that name until they leave behind the idea that peace is synonomous with the absence of conflict. Making peace requires the Nine to develop a truly active nature, the nature that Nines are able to manifest when they shed the passivity associated with their fixation.

    Nines with a One wing tend to be more cerebral and imaginative than those with an Eight wing. They typically withdraw under stress more than those with an Eight wing. They sometimes find it difficult to ground themselves. They tend to lose focus and can get lost in worlds of their imagination. Nines with an Eight wing are overall more grounded and assertive. They tend also to be more sociable than those with a One wing. Nines with a One wing are more theoretical; those with an Eight wing more practical.

  9. #29
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Oh dear... that 8 bit seems to be gathering speed :eek:
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #30
    Senior Member Delphyne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Aha. I see. I said balanced wings though...
    Yeah, I don`t see your One-wing.Whereīs your oneish side? Is it hiding?

    May I reference you to the first quote in my sig. It's also quoted as "ENFPs are like all other ENFPs, like some other ENFPs, like no other ENFPs."

    So I see it with 1s.
    Maybe but thereīs just one right way to do things. Ones are quite happy to clear things up for you.

    I do agree though that on the surface I read like a 9w8 most of the time.
    Do you see some resemblance between you and 9w8s like Balu, Obelix, or Kung fu Panda?
    YouTube - Bare Necessities

    No I meant on this thread. With no one to provoke I'll just end up wandering off and that's not good. I like 9s.. even if it is weird that no one ever properly objects.
    Ah, you want to be enchained.

    I wonder what it would be like if you could get 9s to argue?
    Now, why should I do this? Actually I was hoping for a some tea and cookies.

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