• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[Type 8] Type 8 and type 5 - How can you make it work?

CubeWuerfel

New member
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Messages
12
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
5w4
With us, it's always an up and down within our relationship, with the same old patterns re-emerging again and again... and I'm well aware of what I've gotten myself into -at least so I'd like to think, and I'm ready for whatever kind of effort success in this one demands in order to break the cycle we're trapped in. I feel pretty clueless however about how to approach this the right way though it seems overly...even ridiculously simple.


Basically, what all the issues with my 8w7 are about (as I am experiencing it at least):

Him (8w7): Are you still talking to your ex? Do you talk often?
Me (5w4): Yeah and what...no, we were just casually talking.
Him (8w7): Does he know you have a boyfriend?
Me (5w4): No, he doesn't.
Him (8w7): Why? Are you interested in keeping things open with him?
Me (5w4): No, I'm certainly not. I didn't tell him because I think it's really none of his business. He shouldn't get too involved in my life.
Him (8w7): But he's still interested in you?
Me (5w4): I don't know but I don't care either way.
Him (8w7): It's pretty obvious he is and I don't understand why in this case you did not go ahead and tell him.
Me (5w4): Even if he was interested, it wouldn't change anything because I know I am not, we don't even talk about such matters and I don't feel the need t-
Him (8w7): WHY would anyone, why would YOU keep in touch with an ex that obviously has romantic interests in you?
Me (5w4): As said, I have no idea about how he feels and I don't care-
Him (8w7): It's just so obvious, so obvious... and you're giving him false hopes and you're talking to him and other guys behind my back, without me ever knowing you could lead a double-life and that would be completely wrong. How do I know you won't cheat on me? And this other guy you told me about once, is it someone you used to have romantic feelings for?
Me (5w4): *overwhelmed* ...No (thinking: how the fuck did we even end up here, I thought it was about different expectations in relationships, like "is it ok to talk to an ex?" or "should you inform your partner about whom you talk to?" but now it has turned to something much bigger...I don't get it anymore...what's happening, was it me perhaps who did something wrong?)
Him: Reaallyyy
Me: Yes.

Later:

Me (5w4): Okay I admit it, he is someone I used to have feelings for.
Him (8w7): You lied to me in the face multiple times, that's so wrong and pathetic you simply lacked courage to speak the truth in fear I could change my view of you..... and I hate that about women...*continues ranting*
Me (5w4): Whoa, I was pressured you know, you asked so many questions, I didn't mean to lie, I'm sorry about that, I'm not good with pressure, I need lots of time to think...
Him: Now you're saying my desire to know the truth made you lie or what.
Me: (annoyed) No, I'm saying I just don't do well with the way you told me!

...either it will continue like this or start all over to end like this again after we've had a break, eventually it will.



I do not get it. I guess he's too busy being angry and trying to control the relationship, and I bet he's sending lots of signals here...that I just don't seem to receive. I rely a lot on facts, on what is clearly and directly communicated while he likes interpreting body languages and looking for hidden meanings and the whole spectrum of information to the point he accuses me of things that don't exist just because his intuition read something and it's sooo annoying, I just want a proper talk with him, no interrupting, no aggressive or dismissive body language (I simply ignore those but I guess this makes it even worse?), no insults, no yelling, just stating the facts calmly so you can work on a solution. That's my type 5 way to handle things. But it doesn't work so far. Sometimes it's just to much for me and I walk away and withdraw to process all this (and he can get even more mad or imaptient bc of this).

But what DOES work? I've never ever encountered these kinds of problems in past relationships, I didn't think I'd ever have them too...
 

CubeWuerfel

New member
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Messages
12
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
5w4
How the hell do I properly communicate with someone like him that is so different to me? It is like we lack critically important qualities the other person however posseses. I can remain objective, but I get confused about feelings and back away easily and I might do insenstitive things, overlook his emotional states because I'm so busy thinking about what kind of superior logical arguments I could invoke so he could just calm down again but that is clearly not what he wants to hear atm nor what works....
 

ceecee

Coolatta® Enjoyer
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
15,908
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
8w9
Let me extract the most important thing you are not seeing.

Him (8w7): You lied to me in the face multiple times, that's so wrong and pathetic you simply lacked courage to speak the truth in fear I could change my view of you..... and I hate that about women...*continues ranting*

If you lie to an 8, that's it. Game over. They will never trust you again.
 

CubeWuerfel

New member
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Messages
12
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
5w4
So what now? I know I'm guilty but I also know he was being too threatening and invasive and I could have told him the truth right away if he would not have been like that... I do not want to push away responsibility by saying this, not in any way, it's just what I think. It's ok for him to be angry, I'm just saying the way he expresses himself doesn't work on me. Even before I lied to him I had to constantly defend myself from lots of shit accusations, sometimes insults for things I've never done because he was raging at something he thought I did, but actually didn't BUT he could have known if he just talked to me properly.
 

Agent Washington

Softserve Ice Cream
Joined
Jan 24, 2017
Messages
2,053
...Well, it's over.

Any continuation from here would just be games.

Don't get me wrong, I know how it is, as much as I also dislike people who don't know how they feel. But there seems to be zero compatibility and zero trust, and if the way he speaks threatens you enough that you don't feel like you can express yourself honestly and easily with him, it... can't work? I give the benefit of doubt so I assume his other accusations are also pretty shitty, and it also usually a sign of them being controlling, so maybe it's better to break it off before you get in too deeply to extricate yourself.
 

CubeWuerfel

New member
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Messages
12
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
5w4
It's not over......yet. Is it really?

Ok, what's with you people, I'm wondering? He hurt me, I hurt him, ok, but do you back away from 'real' conflict that fast? Is that what it's all about? Accuse people of doing wrong things and someday when they in fact did something it's over? Why? So you can tell yourself "Ha I knew I couldn't trust that person, I was so right" but what's the point of that? Is there no "we'll grow as a person together and master the hardships" or anything of that sort, or is that not what relationships are supposed to be like. Giving up just sounds too simple. Not what a fighter personality is like. I guess you advise me not to, but I want to know how to continue best, I don't get most of the stuff and I'll need some help to get things right.
 

Tater

New member
Joined
Jul 26, 2014
Messages
2,421
Even if you had talked with your ex, things would have gone much smoother had you initially answered your boyfriend's question candidly. Instead, you sent him the message that you had something to be anxious about.

How would you feel if he was talking to his ex, and when you asked about it, he lied about it and told you he used to have feelings?

That said, not sure what advice I could offer. At this point, it's up to him if he wants to continue.

If I were in your shoes, and my girlfriend was on my ass about something like that, I'd damn the consequences and be forthright about everything without blaming anyone else. But don't expect everything to resolve swimmingly or at all. I'd also have clarified what boundaries I set with my ex, because there would have been some.

Also sounds like you don't know him well enough to factor in expectations or how to assert yourself on the spot. Spending less time with your ex and more time getting to know the person you're with would have remedied that to some extent.
 

Methylene

Now with more salt.
Joined
Oct 10, 2016
Messages
2,560
MBTI Type
LVEF
Enneagram
639
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
With us, it's always an up and down within our relationship, with the same old patterns re-emerging again and again... and I'm well aware of what I've gotten myself into -at least so I'd like to think, and I'm ready for whatever kind of effort success in this one demands in order to break the cycle we're trapped in. I feel pretty clueless however about how to approach this the right way though it seems overly...even ridiculously simple.
In any relationship this is the first kind of no-no. I used to act the same way with my ex, who I suspect to be either 48x or 84x, but I've never managed to break the cycle. Some people aren't just meant to be together for incompatibility, and trying to fix that is impossible (unless you want to annichilate your personality).
Apart from that, there's seriously some trust issues from both of you and, from what I've read, I don't see a chance to fix this. Seriously, it's over. At this point try to minimize the damage.
 

Peter Deadpan

phallus impudicus
Joined
Dec 14, 2016
Messages
8,883
I get both sides of the issue, I really do. You both fucked up. You weren't completely transparent with him (nor with your ex, which to me is almost a bigger problem because... why are you even talking to him?), and he is being too controlling with his tone and approach.

Yes, I do think it is possible to grow stronger and closer through these things. However, it sounds to me like you have some loose ends that need tying. You need to make the situation very clear to your ex and I would consider ending all contact with him, personally. I don't talk to any of my exes, and while I know that that isn't how everyone operates, I think it's the best approach to this situation.

Is your boyfriend showing other signs of jealousy and controlling behavior? If you even have to hesitate to answer that, then I can affirmatively say that the relationship is not healthy and is unlikely to last the long haul. You yourself stated that you have noticed patterns that repeat within your relationship, so to me, it sounds like you already know things aren't right but are perhaps in a bit of denial, which is natural. When these patterns exist, what results is a buildup of resentment toward each other.

It also sounds like your partner has an unhealthy perspective on women in general, which tells me that he hasn't worked through his own past traumas or baggage.

The longer you stay, the more it's gonna hurt. I wish you the best of luck and hope you are able to step back and find some clarity. INFJs have a tendency to be waaaaay too close to their partners to see the bigger picture and consequently stick it out far too long in unhealthy relationships because we are so willing to see things from others' perspectives and to forgive and sacrifice our own needs for greater harmony.
 

CubeWuerfel

New member
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Messages
12
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
5w4
I think that's partly it. I'm sending messages I don't want to send and I'm not even aware of it ...because it's not direct. I can't see half of the picture I feel. In my eyes, I was stressed and lied and corrected myself later on, not more not less, all simple. But it isn't?

I'm an extremely head-focused person. Honestly, I would not have expected it to be this way. I thought he'd say something like "Well, I didn't mean to pressure you, still I find it to be unacceptable to lie. I was very concerned in the moment you told me you had talked to your ex. so how was it really?" Idk, just anything that is more efficient than yelling at people , he surely is an intelligent person but I frequently doubt his social skills regarding conflict resolution and anger management.

But yes, I don't know him well and I frequently tell him that, that I'd need to get used to him, get to know him and that it's all really just started. I think he's still ready to invest, he says he wants us to move together and he isn't tooooo angry anymore.

All I want to learn from that lesson but I can't do the maximum on learning if I don't get the situation. Browsing typologycentral and listening to other enneagram 8s however helped me learn about him and understand him more.
 

Poki

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
10,436
MBTI Type
STP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
How the hell do I properly communicate with someone like him that is so different to me? It is like we lack critically important qualities the other person however posseses. I can remain objective, but I get confused about feelings and back away easily and I might do insenstitive things, overlook his emotional states because I'm so busy thinking about what kind of superior logical arguments I could invoke so he could just calm down again but that is clearly not what he wants to hear atm nor what works....

Your missing the whole point for some other immediate goal and trying to fix symptoms.

Sounds like you need to process your actions and reconcile them so you actually have solid answers as well as solid actions. Its all about priorities...what do you really want...thats where you need to focus your energy.

 

CubeWuerfel

New member
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Messages
12
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
5w4
And oh well, Peter Deadpan, my ex just asked me how I was doing, he knew I was dealing with some hard stuff atm, out of nowhere, we hadn't talked for a long time before and after that I never talked to him again. I didn't feel any urge to tell my partner because of that. I didn't find it relevant, idk. I'm pretty relaxed about those things too generally though. I firmly believe my partner when they say it was just casual. I'm a very trusting person. I forgot he probably isn't that much but his reaction reminded me quickly.

He indeed has some baggage to carry, he's probably afraid of being left (again) and he does show other controlling behaviours. I just can't help but think, I love him, and I want to protect him from any pain and I am not planning on leaving him, all I need to do is express it in a way he also understands which will require a lot, and I just need more time and said clarity.

The patterns I mentioned:

He gets mad, eventually I feel too threatened
I withdraw, I'm confused (Why is he mad? What's the problem?)
he gets even mader that I don't understand,
I defend myself , sometimes rather poorly,
he kind of does not care and thinks more about his own hurt feels (I perceive it that way)
etc....
 

ChocolateMoose123

New member
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
5,278
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
And oh well, Peter Deadpan, my ex just asked me how I was doing, he knew I was dealing with some hard stuff atm, out of nowhere, we hadn't talked for a long time before and after that I never talked to him again. I didn't feel any urge to tell my partner because of that. I didn't find it relevant, idk. I'm pretty relaxed about those things too generally though. I firmly believe my partner when they say it was just casual. I'm a very trusting person. I forgot he probably isn't that much but his reaction reminded me quickly.

He indeed has some baggage to carry, he's probably afraid of being left (again) and he does show other controlling behaviours. I just can't help but think, I love him, and I want to protect him from any pain and I am not planning on leaving him, all I need to do is express it in a way he also understands which will require a lot, and I just need more time and said clarity.

The patterns I mentioned:

He gets mad, eventually I feel too threatened
I withdraw, I'm confused (Why is he mad? What's the problem?)
he gets even mader that I don't understand,
I defend myself , sometimes rather poorly,
he kind of does not care and thinks more about his own hurt feels (I perceive it that way)
etc....


He's mad because he is jealous and he thinks you are playing dumb and being shady.


I know you said you didn't think it's any of your exes business whether you have a boyfriend or not but if your ex is your friend, then why wouldn't you share important details of your life like a SO?

Are you sure you aren't harboring feelings for this person? Or alternatively, you aren't interested but you are just enjoying his attentions and do not wish to end those attentions by letting him know you have a boyfriend?

If it's the latter, your boyfriend is picking up on that and calling you out for it because you're using someone to boost your ego or bide your time. Either it is him or the ex. Little of both?

3rd option: you are very, very innocent and naive. Almost impossibly so for someone who has had at least two relationships. Does that make sense? Are you out of high school, btw?

You don't seem crazy about either of these people, fwiw.

If you are being misunderstood, why bother being with someone who intimidates you so easily?
 

Rambling

New member
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
401
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
And oh well, Peter Deadpan, my ex just asked me how I was doing, he knew I was dealing with some hard stuff atm, out of nowhere, we hadn't talked for a long time before and after that I never talked to him again. I didn't feel any urge to tell my partner because of that. I didn't find it relevant, idk. I'm pretty relaxed about those things too generally though. I firmly believe my partner when they say it was just casual. I'm a very trusting person. I forgot he probably isn't that much but his reaction reminded me quickly.

He indeed has some baggage to carry, he's probably afraid of being left (again) and he does show other controlling behaviours. I just can't help but think, I love him, and I want to protect him from any pain and I am not planning on leaving him, all I need to do is express it in a way he also understands which will require a lot, and I just need more time and said clarity.

The patterns I mentioned:

He gets mad, eventually I feel too threatened
I withdraw, I'm confused (Why is he mad? What's the problem?)
he gets even mader that I don't understand,
I defend myself , sometimes rather poorly,
he kind of does not care and thinks more about his own hurt feels (I perceive it that way)
etc....

Interesting...

I think your boyfriend the 8w7 is insecure underneath the anger. And showing you the anger and its strength is for him tantamount to showing you how strongly he feels about you and wanting you to be exclusively with him...that's how I would see or understand that, and when it doesn't work because you seem to think the old ex is just fine to socialise with, then of course he is going to question himself, feel foolish for showing his feelings, wonder whether the relationship with you is working....etc.

I think you as a 5w4 are hesitating to invest in him emotionally (and 'no secrets' is the place to get to, in some ideal world, as a couple) - if you could manage to open up to him about how you currently feel about him, share how worried you are about the patterns which you think are repeating (*not* with the aim that he solve the patterns nor indeed that you solve them, but more in the sense of wanting to become a team of two which faces team problems together...) - or another time after some good times in between, say how you get scared when he gets angry, and you don't find it easy to respond about the issue itself when he is angry...because his emotions are so strong that they fry up your logical circuits and you get stuck because all you want to do is cuddle him and comfort him and help him at that point...or whatever the truth is...

Think about what you are actually physically doing when he is angry as well. Not being funny but talking after you have both eaten, when neither of you is stressed about work, you've both come in, eaten and not tired (or talking at the weekend mornings about these things...

Ask him in advance what he would like you to do when he gets angry...the basic thing is usually best to alternate so you don't both lose control of yourself at the same time. Would it help him if for example he goes to lie down for some time and later you come by and see how he is doing? Half an hour of time alone might be how he would usually calm down...or he might have some other way such as going to have a run or something.

There is each of you trusting the other one about how to deal with your own emotions and their emotions. Separate that from the logical issues which can be solved logically (like, whoever you are with, lying to them is going to be an issue for them at some point in your life, but likelihoood is that you lied because you were afraid (that's E5) but afraid of what? How can he help you not to be afraid of him...he will want (I expect) you to bring your problems to him and he will greatly enjoy helping you solve them. Reaching that place of trust will probably be a challenge for you...and take lots of conversations in its own right.

Tl;dr it's okay to have baggage. And it's okay to have Enneagram knowledge. But the aim is to become a team who work together against the piles of baggage ...
 

CubeWuerfel

New member
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Messages
12
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
5w4
[MENTION=5223]MDP2525[/MENTION]

...No, I'm not out of highschool... I should be studying by now though but I wasn't able to continue school due to sickness the past years. I found it really nice for my ex to ask how I was doing, in the sense that it was caring and considerate, not because it was male attention. We're not friends, either. But...I'm really doubting my decision now not to have told him about my 8w7. I like to keep away anyone I don't care that much about at distance. I could have told me ex, but as a result I would have felt that I was getting way too close to him and it wouldn't have felt appropriate to our actual relation. In general I have troubles with closeness and sharing myself, I know what my weak points are and that this causes touble with other people. It's hard for me to predict those however and in the end I'm left confused like "I really wouldn't have thought he would have wanted to know that or would have found that relevant...."

The 8w7 is my third relationship.
 

ChocolateMoose123

New member
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
5,278
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
[MENTION=5223]MDP2525[/MENTION]

...No, I'm not out of highschool... I should be studying by now though but I wasn't able to continue school due to sickness the past years. I found it really nice for my ex to ask how I was doing, in the sense that it was caring and considerate, not because it was male attention. We're not friends, either. But...I'm really doubting my decision now not to have told him about my 8w7. I like to keep away anyone I don't care that much about at distance. I could have told me ex, but as a result I would have felt that I was getting way too close to him and it wouldn't have felt appropriate to our actual relation. In general I have troubles with closeness and sharing myself, I know what my weak points are and that this causes touble with other people. It's hard for me to predict those however and in the end I'm left confused like "I really wouldn't have thought he would have wanted to know that or would have found that relevant...."

The 8w7 is my third relationship.

Ok...thank you for your response. I see the E5 aspects of keeping distance. You almost vibe like a young TP in how you describe your reasoning in that "I don't know why he is angry. Emotion does not compute".

But anyway, that emotional distance you prefer (I understand it very well) will always cause mistrust or anger from SO's. Levels vary with individuals.

It's easy for 5's to gravitate toward more...emotionally reactive or expressive people due to being the more distant of two. Someone has to elicit connection and it's usually not 5's. Also, connection isn't intimacy. 5's have trouble with it.

Hard part is if you rely too much on your partner to do that you can be stuck with a lot of dramatic individuals. Jealousy, possessiveness, etc.

So, you have to do some work here. When you put your mind to wondering why he was upset when there was nothing to be upset over. You are attempting to solve an unsolvable dilemma. You can't "logic" your way to change his mind or lessen his reaction. Know that now.

You can't rationalize emotions but you can put parameters on them.

What is too invasive for you? Too jealous? Etc.

I have a feeling you didn't understand why he was upset because as a young 5, you would actively avoid getting to his point of emotion. You don't understand it because you haven't experienced it. Would you say that is correct or false?


Btw, I don't think your 8 is a good match for you but you can learn a lot from him about how you want to approach some of these issues in the future, because they will re-appear.
 

Norqs

New member
Joined
Aug 21, 2017
Messages
21
MBTI Type
ESFP
Enneagram
8
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
As an 8 w7 myself I can see his frustration. 8 are deeply loyal to those they care about and this means that we would wonder why you would keep your ex in the dark abou being in a new relationship. If I'm seeing someone I care about then I look forward to others knowing about it. I show my pride in being with someone I consider special to me. If someone keeps me a a secret then I start to doubt the sincerity of their feelings towards me. We are quite straight forward and don't like to play games. Just be open and honest from the get go... and you'll not have the anger of an 8 to deal with!
 
Top