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  1. #1
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Default 5s and being assertive

    I am curious about some things and I will express that through a few questions :


    How do you perceive or define assertive element in yourself ?

    How often people get verbally defensive around you ?

    Do people say you come across as angry or argumentative ?

    How do you define and experience integration to e8 ?



    Feel free to add more questions if you are interested in the topic.
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  2. #2
    Cosmic Storm Cat Brainz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    I am curious about some things and I will express that through a few questions :


    How do you perceive or define assertive element in yourself ?

    How often people get verbally defensive around you ?

    Do people say you come across as angry or argumentative ?

    How do you define and experience integration to e8 ?



    Feel free to add more questions if you are interested in the topic.

    How do you perceive or define assertive element in yourself ?

    My assertive element is when people are wrong I feel the urge to correct it to keep my inner state "logical".
    How often people get verbally defensive around you ?

    Not very often. I am a pretty laid back and fun loving guy until debates arise then I really get other people on edge and they become defensive.
    Do people say you come across as angry or argumentative ?

    Yes. When debating a topic I am full of energy and joy for the debate which can come across as aggression.
    How do you define and experience integration to e8 ?

    My e8 side comes out when I am confident in my knowledge in something and I start to lead things along and others start to look up to me as the leader.
    http://kevan.org/jh/cat+brainze

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    Tell me is this a grin of joy or is it a grimace of pain?


    9w1 7w6 3w4

  3. #3
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    No one else ?

  4. #4
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    In the setting I grew up in, getting into debates was pointless and just got me abused and/or cut off. So I basically withdrew from meaningful social interaction except from some one on one's with people I could trust. I spent most of my time in self-absorbed study, contemplation, or creative activity. Besides, then if people were doing things I thought made no sense, it did not typically impact me anyway.

    I began throwing my weight around in my 30's and beyond. I wasn't happy and couldn't accomplish the things I wanted to accomplish by remaining an outsider all the time. There is also the reality that you can't remain passive and untouched, because even if you don't want to step on other people's toes, you are vulnerable to more assertive and even aggressive people who DO want to change you or control you to fit into THEIR plans. Playing defensive ALL the time (or walling people out) only goes so far and won't necessarily protect you.

    But there was a big curve in learning how to deal with people, not fretting over someone getting in my face or cutting me out, not worrying about being misunderstood or misrepresented. As much as it might seem odd, I get annoyed by having to wield power, and I don't like battles that become personal. So when I got to be more assertive, it would still "feel wrong" and I had to recalibrate myself in terms of conflict and how to read what was unfolding. That shift to 8 brings efficacy to all the knowledge a 5 can pick up along the way, but you have to accept that it's okay to assert yourself, be more directive than informative at times, and that sometimes you'll need to override someone else. With 8, it also feels like goal shifts from "understanding everything correctly / stating something correctly" to "accomplishing the task / getting the job done." So sometimes you'll make decisions without knowing all the data, or you won't share all you know if it would undermine reaching the goal, etc., because sometimes what you share will be exploited rather than used for positive purposes. And you understand sometimes people will oppose you because they have a different goal or anything ranging from good to bad motivations, and you just focus on your goal and getting it done.

    I dunno. It's a weird thing. But basically the energy flows are different. WIth 5, data moves from the outside to internal, where you parse and sift through it. With 8, you are sending energy from within out into the world to change the world.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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  5. #5
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    How do you perceive or define assertive element in yourself ?
    When I take action consistent with I believe is important, against social and professional pressure. Be it to choose to voice what I believe it hypocrisy, or to choose to calm the situation when there is panic.

    How often people get verbally defensive around you ?
    Seldom. Even when being assertive/voicing my opinion, I try not to be judgemental about people whom I disagree with.

    Do people say you come across as angry or argumentative ?
    More when I was younger. Now what was perceived as anger comes across as passion. The argumentation comes across as conviction.

    How do you define and experience integration to e8 ?
    What I was describing above, I guess. Not to stop at the stage of collecting information, but instead doing something with it. To take action and build a world that aligns with personal values, to express myself and my perspective through my actions and creations.
    "How badly did you have to break it to make it care about people so much?"
    "That didn't break it. It's what made it work."

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  6. #6
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    As I pointed in other thread(s) I think I am 1 instead of 5 and I have opened this thread to check how other fives are doing in this regard, since in this regard the difference should be the largest. Since I am INTJ and technical expert tritype it seems that I am very similar to the 5s but it seem that I have to admit myself that I am not a 5, since I am too J and "pushy" for a 5. Therefore I will continue to be unhappy if I don't recognize my real needs and make peace with them and myself. Also I think that even from my posting it is possible to sense my rigidity and concerns with efficiency and morals.


    I even made very good and large explanation of why I am 1 instead of 5 however I was hesitant to accept what is actually pretty obvious. However that leads me to nowhere on the long run.


    It seems that it is very easy to mistype 1 with 5 fix for the actual 5.


    Ones are often intelligent, independent and emotionally detached and can easily mistype themselves, or be mistyped by others, as examples of Enneatype Five, but however intelligent they are, Ones are primarily people of action, not thought, and they are far more comfortable adopting a leadership role than is the more withdrawn and reclusive Five. Even the most intellectual of type Ones – consider Plato in this regard – want to leave a tangible mark. Plato created the academy which survived for the better part of a millennium.

    1-5-3 : usually introverted and elitist, prefer the scientific approach in nearly everything they do. These Ones appear colder and very self-certain but can be rather sensitive and fearful on the inside. Are afraid of failure and not meeting the expectations of others, mainly because they think they do not have enough resources for all their projects. They are hard-working, thorough and very meticulous and their work is usually impeccable. These Ones are particularly intellectual, knowledgeable and objective.
    usual subtypes: self-preserving, social 1w9
    similar tritypes: 1-3-5, 5-1-3, 3-1-5
    flavours: cerebral, scientific, meticulous and objective

    So when disatisfaction with the world or plenty of work kicks in I may even go to

    1-3-5 : a rather ambitious, elitist and goal-oriented One, very hard-working and somewhat intellectually arrogant. They rarely show their feelings and therefore they usually seem cold and very self-assured. These Ones are generally well-read, well-mannered and quite intellectually refined: they like to impress others with their intelligence, wisdom and irreproachable work.
    usual subtypes: social, self-preserving, 1w9
    similar tritypes: 1-5-3, 3-1-5, 5-1-3
    flavours: competent, intellectual, ambitious and refined

    Which is all pretty 5ish in package but there is just too much determination and desire for impact. It seems that five collects knowledge and then uses it upon the world, while one with five fix actively scans the world for problems and then searches for solution or leads the team to the problematic spot. What makes it very easy to make a mistype. For years I am slaming my head into the wall over the question: what kind of a 5 makes plans for other people, has so high expectations and desires, ignores/fights impractical models, controls things and enjoys it so much, makes people defensive often etc ... and this is the pretty obvious answer to that question: The 5 that isn't a 5.


    However if if you would type only by core then 5 would still actually be more like me. Especially since I don't relate to traditional suff in e1 profiles, where you can find plenty of foreign elements that don't even fit into my culture/country.



    5s don't have these kinds of dillemas that hunt them ?

  7. #7
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    I will answer here where it is more on topic.


    Quote Originally Posted by ZNP-TBA View Post
    @Virtual ghost

    I really don't know what kind of NTJ you are. Typically ENTJs get themselves involved with people but in a specific way. ENTJs tend to see people as a means to an (Ni envisioned) end. ENTJs are proactive in organizing their social atmosphere to fit that end like placing all the correct parts in some kind of machine. It's very systematic thinking. On the one hand it makes ENTJs come off as 'cold' as even people can be seen as 'tools' for the ENTJ but on the other hand it makes ENTJs pretty good at forging fruitful relationships as the ENTJ is likely to discard anyone that does not benefit their own well being and healthy state of mind (i.e. toxic people) while others will needlessly cling on to toxic relationships. The people that ENTJs do not pay attention to all to often is themselves. ENTJs have a good intuition about where everyone and everything else outside of themselves fit but all too frequently are unsure where they themselves fit in the grand scheme of things which can lead to problems like anxiety and insecurity (inferior Fi).

    INTJs have a better grasp on their environment in relation to themselves in terms of being comfortable in any given setting but sometimes fail to size up their actual environment correctly (as opposed to sizing up themselves incorrectly).
    That is true in typological sense.

    However when you live in a place when your can get to the Master degree without solving a single practical problem then all of this is going to wind. Also here when you go to college and you can't pick your classes since the courses are static (take it or leave it). Suing someone will probably turn into a bureaucratic nightmare, that can even last over a decade or even two in extreme scenario. Due to communist legacy owning a business is often seen as criminal behavior (especially if you are doing good). Here it is totally normal that they hire D class of student over A class of student simply because uncle of D students already works in the company, they even forge hiring contests since they already know who they are going to hire and all of this is just a cover up. War destroyed many things that never really came back. Also here you don't have a congressman which you can contact as you like. We have some of the highest taxes in the world that eat good chunk your entire income (here vat is 25%, and tax on fuel is shocking 110%) etc etc. Plus when you have FP parents admiting/showing to them you are strong Te user is like telling very conservative parents you are gay.


    This is why I feel generally lost and have unhealthy Fi outbrakes. Since my main strenghts are completely useless in so many situations, even if I often see at first sight what is wrong in particular situation. I live as INTJ but in this case living style and actual cognition may not be the same thing, especially if you are not into selling you ass. What when combined is something that US based typology doesn't take into account at all. Here often the only way to do something is by going throught the wall, and you can't do that everyday.

  8. #8
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    I will answer you here. (it is big post but I wanted to seal the story because I have to start spending energy elsewhere)


    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    ENTJs are just as strongly linked to other kinds of leadership, such as military leadership. In fact, one of the type nicknames is the Field Marshal. People hereabouts probably view this sort of consistent, determined, and outgoing style of leadership through the lens of capitalism because: (1) most of us grew up in capitalist economies, and (2) in such an environment, this type matches up well with the CEO of a business. That doesn't exclude other manifestations of the preferences, though.

    INTJs tend to be more behind-the-scenes leaders, manipulating situations out of the public view, as opposed to ENTJS who will just go up to people and tell them what to do, and expect them to follow. Of course these are just stereotypes, but it might help you decide which you are.
    That is the problem: I am both ... depending on circumstance.






    I am quite attracted to leadership and if possible I take it, but often that isn't possible since I live in the society that isn't logically structured, I believe that this is visible from my posts around the forum. However I struggle with "What is me a what are circumstances ?".


    However I am giving up on this game since there are too much elements that are completely out of picture for typology. There is no perfect fit, however for the sake of argument I will say that I am INTJ 582 so/sp. I started as 583 but there was something wrong with that, so I started to dig. I don't see myself as 2 fixed but it may not be that simple, especially due to bolded part, while underlined is parhaps the key to everything.


    If you are a 258, you are caring, knowledgeable and protective. You want to be helpful, wise and straight- forward. You are an intellectual ambivert both extroverted and introverted. You are caring and can easily move towards others to help, or feel over extended and feel the need to pull away. Your life mission is to help, inform and/or protect others. A true analyst, you are happiest when you are in a position of leadership and can use your natural instinct to understand strategic principles to guide others. You can be so identified with your opinions that you can be too forward or too distant from others, which can appear intense, unpredictable and intimidating

    The bolded part allows me to completely turn off heart triad and this is where many problem are likely occur. Since due to NTJnes, So/Sp instinct and integration towards 8 it seems that I can create illusion of 3w4 fix, which can also evaporate at any time. The profile in general says that 258 types are socially confusing people since all three elements are in contradiction, which is because this tritype develops only in situations where things go terribly wrong ... and my life can be considered to be such case. I have spread myself maximally so that I can grab any opportunity that comes, even if the combination doesn't make sense at face value. What really attracts me to this tritype is that it is defined as triple rejected, what also means that I am impossible to control. Since I can always scrap my investemnts and say "I've seen worse", what most people finds terrifying. Especially since I have been through so many weird situations in life that I am build on a way that I can remake myself in order to go through various situations ... plus I can't be shocked since I've seen "everything". (what again scares people)


    Also I often think that beneath my strong 1 score there is hidden, unloved and militarized 2w1 fix that has very strong wing, especially since I do acts of kindness or I take care of others when that is needed. I constantly remind or educate people, I am good cook, I repair stuff for others, create structure for others, once I even helped blind guy over finishing his final project at college. etc.



    Also this doesn't sound like a 5 even if it is typed as 5. This sounds quite ENTJish actually.


    5-8-2: Most personable and people-oriented Five, especially if SOC. Amplified with the 6 wing.
    5-8-2: these Fives are more focused on and involved with their environments. They’re typically quite imposing and intrusive on others’ lives although they don’t like it when the reverse happens. They are dedicated, courageous, confident and passionate people, sometimes overprotective of their loved ones and having a tendency to dominate and more or less subtly manipulate others into believing as they do. Aiming for a position of power and authority, these Fives have a deep urge to closely control their worlds.





    The whole thing actually sounds quite like me and it hits a few things that other profiles never do. Actually INTJ with Strategist tritype shouldn't be something unheard of. Therefore I will go with this as my final answer.


    Triple rejection (258) - Strategist tritype

    This tritype wants to really be of service by providing useful information to others and protecting others through their knowledge or expertise in a particular area. It can be a confusing type because there is a hot/cold quality to them that can be difficult for people to understand. One minute they are helpful and warm, the next cold and rejecting, and then another seemingly directive and blunt. On the high side they really know what is needed to protect and guide others. They can sometimes feel they don't have the internal resources to help others but want to have something to offer (which contributes to the hot/cold quality).

    If you are a 258 type, you are caring, knowledgeable and protective. You want to be helpful, wise and straight- forward. You are an intellectual ambivert both extroverted and introverted. You are caring and can easily move towards others to help, or feel over extended and feel the need to be pull away. Your life mission is to help, inform and/or protect others. A true analyst, you are happiest when you are in a position of leadership and can use your natural instinct to understand strategic principles to guide others. You can be so identified with your opinions that you can be too forward or too distant from others, which can appear intense, unpredictable and intimidating

    Likely to deny that they have needs themselves, deny vulnerability, deny deny deny "it's the others who depend on me, not the other way around", and can exert a great deal of strategic insight into most situations and become the classic 'mastermind' behind affairs. When less healthy they are control freaks and can't leave others alone---they need to be the prime mover of them all, while denying all the way that they need the control.

    These types, more than anything, need to have the upper hand on people. They may be manipulative and/or domineering. Very often, power hungry.
    2-5-8 typess captures very well my secretiveness and wariness when around other people, and how I do the usual T ( Thinking ) by showing love through doing things for the loved one.

    Your emotional energy goes towards seeking safety and certainty in relationships. You are sensitive to and expect rejection from others. Also, you tend to feel separate from others. You hold back your true self in relationships, offering instead, a skill, service or protection. Overall, because you expect to be rejected, you are cautious in relationships and may be hesitant to form attachments.
    You have all three Realists Enneacards - Types: 2, 5 & 8

  9. #9
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    With the post above my job at TypeC is basically done. I let things sink for a few days but I am 582. The problem with me is that I have apsurd life circumstances behind me and therefore I have a series of contradictions in my typing.


    1. I am e5 and SO dom.

    2. My tritype is 5w6, 8w9, 2w1. So all 3 elements are in contradiction at face value, but this had to be made in order to cover all the important fields.

    3. I am supposed to be some rogue abstract thinker (and I am), but I also have entire anger triad in my fixes.

    4. I am triple unloved in tritype, what is apsurd on its own. But because of this I am very hard to emotionally blackmail, what is scary I suppose.

    5. I am SO dom but I am also counter-flow. What means that I can use the instinct against certain people and groups or as a means of remaking and enhancing the system/situation.



    This really explains why people tend to be on alert around me in real life. Since there is too much contradiction at face value and people can't openly read me (just as profiles suggest), actually people tend to complain about this for many years. While on the other hand I never met anyone that is quite like me and for some reason people find me memorable even after years ... and this could easily be the main reason (unatural energy flow). Plus the fact that this is very rare tritype, because it doesn't come to life naturally and requires wierd series of circumstances in environment to occur.


    However I am quite happy that all of this finally got defined.

  10. #10
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Perhaps it is the time to address the real issue. Since I am playing games with myself in order to defend what is probably undefendable.


    Just as I said in the "type me" thread. The idea that I am 5 is very questionable, what kind a five overwhelms people on daily basis ? I am trying to push aggressive fixes and variants on myself but it is all for nothing and all of it seems as a fundamental mistake. Since I am typing circumstances instead of myself. Plus as I am surrounded with sensitive people and head types I have learned to keep my mouth shut ... since I don't want to trigger drama. (due to this repression I can even get e1 issues). On the other hand I have a very long history of 8 scores as well as ambiverted ENTJ scores. Plus I was quite extroverted child before life circumstances turned me into an outcast. So after all of this it is reasonable to presume that I am simply desintegrated to e5 for 20+ years, I litterally became my desintegration. As a matter of fact when I took the Nardi's test for the first time I came out as ENTJ. Therefore since my heart triad is generally underdeveloped integration towards 2 messes my 3w4 heart fix at this point.


    Plus in profiles there is this line that I am watching for years.

    835: Focused and knowledgeable 8. Most scholarly 8, especially if introverted. Most impersonal 8, especially if self-preserving.
    In this scenario I would be 853, I am generally ambiverted and my So and Sp are in relative balance. Also since I am not American I lack many elements of e8 that are stereotypical (Example: I was born in a place where private property doesn't even exist). Also I typed myself when I was sick and had slower matabolism ... and now when I am healthy some key elements of me have simply evaporated. What made the typing suddenly unsustainable/wrong.



    Plus there are posts like this one.


    I guess this is the right thread to post this question. Since I am wondering if this is a 8 thing or it is just me.
    When you go thorugh the profiles of type 8 there is plenty of dark suff, fights/violence, defending people, messed up childhood, the person is not emotionally available and has trust issues. Something you may not relate openly or you don't want to relate to .... but then comes reality check.

    Your early life was violent :
    Does "your country gets openly invaded when you are 6" count ? Or it is hidding in the basement from the airstrikes that counts ?


    You preserve your personal and physical integrity :
    Is that when I was bullied/abused, but when I realized that no one cares, so I attacked the guy and beat him up.


    You care and protect the others:
    Is that when I go to get the meds during snowstorm or the fact that I am the one that deals with bugs, worms, spiders ?


    You are headstong:
    Is that when I threat authority as my equal ?


    You want to make others happy ?
    Does grocery shopping and being a good cook count ? How about house rapairs ?


    You are intimidating:
    Is that why my friends tease me with "Hi there serial killer !" !?


    You are your own boss:
    Can working as a freelancer count ? Or the fact that I have serious and concret plans to become a business owner ?


    You are conqueror:
    Is that how I started to play strategy video games at the age of 7 ? You know, organising military operations, handling the budgets, invading countries, chasing spys .... ?


    You have a problem with being vulnerable:
    Does the fact that I never had a GF counts ?


    You can remain cool headed in tense/hard situations:
    Is that when I walked through mine fields without freaking out ?


    You create followers:
    Is that when I go away but someone stil continues my "fight" ? Or they will do exacly as I desire because "my logic is good".

    Etc.
    It is as if your inner world and how you see yourself are out of touch with how you behave or others see you in real life.

    So I could be iNTJ 8w9,5w6,3w4 So/Sp. But I could be also eNTJ that doesn't appriciate his environment that much, since it is a mess and wants to be that way, so I often keep low profile. As a matter of fact I have developped the whole and complex defense mechanisms against that. Just today I had two deals and both got cancelled, I mean 8s are quite into "deals". Plus So instinct in 8s tends to hide/control open aggression, especially if w9. For many years people say I am bear like: ok, but you don't want to piss him off. Plus I live in a place where Te is often seen as bad thing that is destroying the social order, that is very Fe based. Plus there is no developed market system that would require plenty of Te.

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