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[Type 9] Really a core Nine?

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I know I shitpost a lot of junk on this forum, and that will probably be my undoing; plus it just makes this post look really bad. But, if I'm going to be self-obsessed, might as well be pseudo-academically self-obsessed.

I went clicking around Personality Cafe for the first time in months lately, including visiting their Enneagram subforum and E9 forum. I remember I used to like it there - a place full of friendly people sharing stories of laziness, conflict-avoidance, and occasional emptiness. Sometimes though, stuff is a bit too extreme for me.

The thread in question was one about an indifference toward dying, which nearly everyone related to and claimed they weren't depressed. It's not the first time I've wondered if I'm not actually indifferent enough to be a core Nine. There are jokes about Nines giving no fucks, more serious discussions of them being unable to care about even important things. But I, if anything, care too much. The kind of "what's the point" feeling attributed to my type only kicks in when I really am depressed, or linked to something else - ephemerality or pure nihilism rarely ever play a role in that kind of thinking; fear of failure is another story.

I mistyped at Six for a while, and I've wondered if that was just disintegration. I've speculated about being an image type of some sort due to my kinds of internal thoughts, fantasies, and painful things the Enneagram made me realize about myself. But, seeing examples of the level of disengagement and detachment other core Nines supposedly have - actually really disturbs me. It scares me to think of being that way, it's that unrelatable - I've fought mentally against ever getting to that level, against that kind of mentality in general. Maybe I looked too much at symptoms unrelated to type when calling myself a Nine.

Not to mention, I seldom relate to type-specific advice for Nines. I inhabit myself, sometimes too much. I know I have desires and needs - I'm not fully aware of what they are, and I tend to be ashamed of them, but I know they're there. What I need most is a spine. :p


So yeah, I'm reviving a self-typing discussion . Anyone know of some relevant type-differentiating questions?
 

Obfuscate

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this isn't what you are looking for, but i had no idea that indifference towards death was common among nines.. given that i have settled on 9w1 for myself, i found it helpful in confirming my self "diagnosis"....
 
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this isn't what you are looking for, but i had no idea that indifference towards death was common among nines.. given that i have settled on 9w1 for myself, i found it helpful in confirming my self "diagnosis"....

Not necessarily indifference to death only, but a severe lack of attachment to one's self, one's body, one's existence - that, if anything, is what's really unrelateble, to me at least. I don't care about much of anything, but it's a painful state to be in. I can relate to the fear of being fully present - but I don't enjoy the detachment.

If anything, I'm still trying to find a typoloical explanation for how obsessively aware I can be of my body.
 

Obfuscate

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Not necessarily indifference to death only, but a severe lack of attachment to one's self, one's body, one's existence - that, if anything, is what's really unrelateble, to me at least. I don't care about much of anything, but it's a painful state to be in. I can relate to the fear of being fully present - but I don't enjoy the detachment.

If anything, I'm still trying to find a typoloical explanation for how obsessively aware I can be of my body.

i am aware of my body/situation, but that doesn't imply undue concern (in my case)...
 

Galena

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I think you were in the right track with a reactive type, but rather than 6's way, I see you react predominantly like this:

Introjection is a counter-intuitive defense mechanism. Instead of repelling critical information and negative experiences that can cause a person anxiety or pain, individuals introject the information – that is, they fully absorb, internalize, and incorporate these data into their sense of self. Fritz Perls, the father of Gestalt Therapy, refers to this phenomenon as swallowing something whole without being able to differentiate between information that is true from information that is untrue. Fours introject negative information – and repel positive data – about themselves as a way of coping with painful information and neutralizing external threats. They prefer to deal with self-inflicted damage rather than having to respond to criticism or rejection from others.

Link

It might look like you project a dark and unforgiving world into reality, but I have noted that when it comes down to actually interacting with reality, the "projection" is reserved just for you to inhabit, and you respond to others more mercifully when they do things that you'd seem unacceptable in yourself. That is what may make it an introjection instead.

The reason I respond to your topics like this one is because you behave like a time clone of me from several years ago. Do you relate to the following, which I realized over time in my own case?

If you are like me, especially me when I was younger, what you do outwardly is test out incredibly rigid ideas (which the Fi-Ni rabbit hole is prime for producing, despite the stereotype of ISFP fluidity) about the world not because they are your genuine beliefs but because you dearly hope to find out that they are not true. The more intense my negative reaction was to said ideas, the less I'd be aware of that motivating hope, because it came from a very dark core fear: that if said ideas were the truth about the real world, said world would be one I was uniquely unsuited for thriving in.

If that is off the mark after all, apologies if it came on too strong.
 

Flâneuse

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Not necessarily indifference to death only, but a severe lack of attachment to one's self, one's body, one's existence - that, if anything, is what's really unrelateble, to me at least.

I don't know you well enough to confidently try to type you - I just wanted to chime in on this comment, as an e9 who is sure of their type. I can really relate to bolded at times, and when I was depressed that pretty much summed up my attitude towards life. There's this really simplistic existential hopelessness - this feeling that, at its core, nothing really means anything, especially not my own experience...that nothing is worth being attached to, because attachment equals pain and why should I feel pain for something that means absolutely nothing? I was never actively suicidal, but there was a feeling that I would welcome death if it happened to come early. I don't think this is common for average-to-healthy Nines, but I do believe, from both my own experiences and what I've read by other Nines, that for unhealthy or depressed Nines it's a pretty common sentiment.

If you don't relate to this at all it doesn't necessarily mean you're not an e9 though - no one relates to every tendency attributed to their type.
 
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It might look like you project a dark and unforgiving world into reality, but I have noted that when it comes down to actually interacting with reality, the "projection" is reserved just for you to inhabit, and you respond to others more mercifully when they do things that you'd seem unacceptable in yourself. That is what may make it an introjection instead.

Dead on. I'm too nice and forgiving for my own good with others, but will rip myself to shreds for the same kinds of mistakes.

If you are like me, especially me when I was younger, what you do outwardly is test out incredibly rigid ideas (which the Fi-Ni rabbit hole is prime for producing, despite the stereotype of ISFP fluidity) about the world not because they are your genuine beliefs but because you dearly hope to find out that they are not true. The more intense my negative reaction was to said ideas, the less I'd be aware of that motivating hope, because it came from a very dark core fear: that if said ideas were the truth about the real world, said world would be one I was uniquely unsuited for thriving in.

Wow. Um...that's really accurate. Like, wow, ouch. I know when I write crazy shiz online, I only half believe it: it's exaggerated versions of things I really believe, or see promoted elsewhere. Something that arouses a lot of feelings in me; the stronger the feelings, the more I feel compelled to try to get feedback on them, from anywhere - and the more any reasonable analysis gets thrown out the window. Some sleep, food, or time away from the thought can make me more rational.

And yes, there's always a terror that the real way of the world is something intensely rigid, vicious, and completely unsuited for me. Or, more appropriately, I'm unsuited for it.

I just wanna be good dammit.

I don't know you well enough to confidently try to type you - I just wanted to chime in on this comment, as an e9 who is sure of their type. I can really relate to bolded at times, and when I was depressed that pretty much summed up my attitude towards life. There's this really simplistic existential hopelessness - this feeling that, at its core, nothing really means anything, especially not my own experience...that nothing is worth being attached to, because attachment equals pain and why should I feel pain for something that means absolutely nothing?

And then there's me, grasping at any kind of meaningfulness - afraid of living "wrong", anguished by boredom and emptiness, and eager for something meaningful enough to have to worry, or to bring myself into line.
 

Neokortex

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I noticed an interesting tendency in Asians being 9s. Something to do with their culture. Guess you have to find a 3w2 to motivate you reach your ideals.
 

Lady Lazarus

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Assuming they're not just incapable of seeing their own depression, I'd say those people were over-identifying with 9. That is, 9 is their identity. In which case, sure, they can be nines I will allow it but they're not exactly what I'd consider good benchmarks for comparison. But yes, the perfect, epitomizing-and yet somehow characteristically nine naturalistic-portrayal of nine they seem to be building into the external, the fact that they almost seem to be proud of laziness, conflict-avoidance, emptiness, and indifference all seem to point in that direction. Watching myself, negative aspects of the self can be dealt with best when they serve the purpose of identity creation. Pretending is for other people, nines become, nines are. Which is perhaps why I find my own numerical brothers and sisters the least grating in their identity based attempts to be loved. But alas, at this point, who can persecute anyone in that arena knowing the reason.
 
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Assuming they're not just incapable of seeing their own depression, I'd say those people were over-identifying with 9. That is, 9 is their identity. In which case, sure, they can be nines I will allow it but they're not exactly what I'd consider good benchmarks for comparison. But yes, the perfect, epitomizing-and yet somehow characteristically nine naturalistic-portrayal of nine they seem to be building into the external, the fact that they almost seem to be proud of laziness, conflict-avoidance, emptiness, and indifference all seem to point in that direction. Watching myself, negative aspects of the self can be dealt with best when they serve the purpose of identity creation. Pretending is for other people, nines become, nines are. Which is perhaps why I find my own numerical brothers and sisters the least grating in their identity based attempts to be loved. But alas, at this point, who can persecute anyone in that arena knowing the reason.

That's a really good point - I've only seen it called out a couple of other times on personality sites, how Enneagram Nines seem to be strangely proud of being lazy, spineless, having no personality. I've joked about it myself in the past. Not to mention a rather literal interpretation of our type's passion that most other type don't have - I've seen other Enneatypes on forums flat out deny their passion, or only admit to it in a nuanced, metaphorical way. Nines? "lol, I'm so freaking lazy, I'm such a procrastinator, I haven't done anything productive all week."

And then there's me. Yeah, I'm one of the laziest mofos you'll ever meet. Never had to work "hard", never learned, and kind of disdain it in certain arenas (for reasons). I don't have much of a personality and certain potentials for conflict terrify me - and I hate it! The former is unbelieveably depressing and the latter just makes me kick myself when I know I could have said/done something but was too afraid to. I'm too nice and too trusting for my own damn good, and it's really just luck it's never landed me in any serious trouble.

I do have the stereotypical Nineish inertia: I'm one of those people who will swear up and down I want something, then do next to nothing to get it. At most, I'll plan how to get it - then spend forever fantasizing about it, until something else catches my attention.

I fought against typing as a Nine because I didn't want to be some empty shell, some boring blob of nothing who's only gift is 'simplicity' and 'being nice' (seriously. "Nice" is not a gift or anything special. It's the bare minimum for being a decent person). Like, can't I be something more interesting? More dramatic, beautiful, whole?
 

Smilephantomhive

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Do 9s get anxious before or during a potentially conflict situation? Or is there another reason for avoiding conflict?
 
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Do 9s get anxious before or during a potentially conflict situation? Or is there another reason for avoiding conflict?

For me personally, yes. It's hard to explain exactly why, but there's something frightening about either being on the receiving end of hostility or having to assert myself somehow. Something about it feels incredibly dangerous and wrong, even if I have every good reason for it. I've given total creeps my phone number rather than tell them to get away from me, for example, because I was too internally paralyzed by the interaction to know what else to do.

Any show of hostility makes me nervous, even if it's not directed at me.

Sometimes, though, it really is just a matter of not wanting to bother, judging something as not worth the effort to correct, argue, make a point, etc. But I think anyone can make that judgment.


PS Your avatar is badass.
 

Neokortex

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That's a really good point - I've only seen it called out a couple of other times on personality sites, how Enneagram Nines seem to be strangely proud of being lazy, spineless, having no personality. I've joked about it myself in the past. Not to mention a rather literal interpretation of our type's passion that most other type don't have - I've seen other Enneatypes on forums flat out deny their passion, or only admit to it in a nuanced, metaphorical way. Nines? "lol, I'm so freaking lazy, I'm such a procrastinator, I haven't done anything productive all week."

And then there's me. Yeah, I'm one of the laziest mofos you'll ever meet. Never had to work "hard", never learned, and kind of disdain it in certain arenas (for reasons). I don't have much of a personality and certain potentials for conflict terrify me - and I hate it! The former is unbelieveably depressing and the latter just makes me kick myself when I know I could have said/done something but was too afraid to. I'm too nice and too trusting for my own damn good, and it's really just luck it's never landed me in any serious trouble.

I do have the stereotypical Nineish inertia: I'm one of those people who will swear up and down I want something, then do next to nothing to get it. At most, I'll plan how to get it - then spend forever fantasizing about it, until something else catches my attention.

I fought against typing as a Nine because I didn't want to be some empty shell, some boring blob of nothing who's only gift is 'simplicity' and 'being nice' (seriously. "Nice" is not a gift or anything special. It's the bare minimum for being a decent person). Like, can't I be something more interesting? More dramatic, beautiful, whole?

Sounds like you're a core 9, meaning that you're aware that your being 9 is not going to help you out in the long run. You can identify with being 9 because you're so keenly aware of the 9's flaws, you've experienced it all and now you wanna be something else. Perhpas evolve to something else. In tritype these are called strategies, so 9 is your basic state and you use other enneagrams as strategies to get away from the negative feelings of being a 9. Whereas the others pretend to be guileless 9s are coming from a different angle: their basic nature is not 9 - they may have it as a strategy against something or even worse, they may just be only wannabes, hence they don't reflect on the negative aspects, rather using more self-irony instead of being really serious and GODDAMN serious SOMEONE PLEASE HELP ME TRANSCEND MY OLD SELF-kinda serious about it. :DD
 

Neokortex

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I wonder if westerners attracted to East Asian culture/philosophy are more likely to be 9?

I had a friend, INTP SP/Sx - SP/So 9, who was into both blacks and Asians... dunno if he was particularly into 9s.
 

Lady Lazarus

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I fought against typing as a Nine because I didn't want to be some empty shell, some boring blob of nothing who's only gift is 'simplicity' and 'being nice' (seriously. "Nice" is not a gift or anything special. It's the bare minimum for being a decent person). Like, can't I be something more interesting? More dramatic, beautiful, whole?

This is eerily reminiscent in reasons to my own initial resistance to nine. At least to in some sense refuse, struggle, and desire more is understandable whereas the epitome nine's way is puzzling.

Regardless, this is not to imply that I think you are a 9. I do not believe I know of you overall other than that I find your perspective strangely refreshing.

May you find answers here.
 

Frosty

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Do 9s get anxious before or during a potentially conflict situation? Or is there another reason for avoiding conflict?

Depends.

The closer I am to the person, the more likely I am to... really REALLY want to avoid a conflict situation. If it is an impersonal situation, like a debate, or a situation where I KNOW the other person is going to just be ridiculous- then- no- I dont really get that anxious. When I DO get anxious- it, self absorbedly I suppose, is because I fear that the situation is going to make me vulnerable/feel vulnerable- and well, the more personal the situation the more likely that is to happen.

So THAT is a big part of it- the knowledge of just- the possibility of being hurt... and then there is another aspect... I also, I dont want the other person getting hurt either. I HATE watching fights involving people I care about probably about as much- if not more, than being in a fight myself. I can protect myself- I can do a 9ish thing and... sort of take a step back- compartmentalize to an extent(an extent which is NOT infinite- but is a lot of the times... enough). I can actually do a lot of things that just surprise people- because of this- step in to conflict situations- stand up to people- ect... jump over the fear of it and take a very short flight. But... I never... While I might enjoy a good debate- or even the results of an argument developed into a productive understanding... I HATE the idea of... doing to someone what I am afraid of when I get into situations like that myself- I HATE the idea of exposing and using peoples vulnerabilities against them. I try very hard never to do that ever. And that causes me to generally lose arguments... because- I just cant. There are certain things that I just cannot do-because I dont want to hurt anyone- and I know that the reverse is... awful.

So theres- if I was going to say I feared an argument- felt anxiety before one, it would be for those reasons. I dont want to be vulnerable. And I dont want to be faced with... the possibility that I use someones vulnerabilites against them- that I slip... and just really really hurt someone. I dont want to get hurt, and I dont want to hurt anyone. Im not trying to make myself sound like a saint here- part of the fact that I dont want to hurt anyone is because just... how disgusted I would feel with myself if I realized I said something just with that intention. And just seeing the hurt and devestation on someones face in a circumstance like that- where they have been hurt at the core... makes me generally want to vomit. I dont want people to be hurt both for their sakes, and selfishly- I dont want to be put in a position where I have to choose between winning a fight/standing my ground... and potentially really really... saying something awful and just- in my mind- really just seriously... destroying someone.

Because I WILL lose the fight. Every time just about I will choose to lose the fight- or not fight. But it gets... exhausting to always have to stand down. To feel like... I have no say- because I am afraid of WHAT I will say... I dont want to really just be cruel. I feel like a monster when Im angry... when I look at someone and see that I might have hurt them I feel like a monster.

So if ANYTHING can be done to prevent a fight- I am generally IRL all on it. So often its... just... so so not worth it in my opinion- if there is another way... its just not worth it.

So if I am placed in a conflict position. I will do generally WHATEVER I can to get out of it. Because I DO fear it. I do get anxious. But... yeah. I had something else to say here but I forgot it.
 

Flâneuse

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A few people have mentioned the Nine's strange tendency to show pride over their simplicity, vacantness, indifference, weakness, etc., and I wanted to chime in on it. I can't speak for other Nines, but when I've felt simple, undeveloped, lacking in a consistent inner self, and/or weak and spineless, I've felt shame, not pride, over it. When I've appeared to show pride over any of these things, it's part of a reaction formation trying to deny that shame by attempting to feel self-accepting about it instead. For example, when I've called myself a "very simple person" as though I'm proud to define myself that way, I'm actually just trying to convince myself that it's okay to be simple, to deny that longing to be interesting and complex despite being boring and empty.
 
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A few people have mentioned the Nine's strange tendency to show pride over their simplicity, vacantness, indifference, weakness, etc., and I wanted to chime in on it. I can't speak for other Nines, but when I've felt simple, undeveloped, lacking in a consistent inner self, and/or weak and spineless, I've felt shame, not pride, over it.

YES!
 

SearchingforPeace

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Just to add an additional type 9 point.... I noticed this morning that I often talk to myself as if my body was not me. I said, out loud, "Let's go." I also often say, "We need to get going" when I am all alone.

There just seems to be too much disconnect between my body and my mind, as if they were teammates, not one in the same.

Additionally, I can easily separate myself into a plethora of personalities and have discussions with multiple viewpoints, as if none of them were me.

As a child, when I had no one else to play with, I would play board games and take the role of multiple players and play it out by myself. I remember doing this with Risk a bunch, and I would play 6 different roles, all with competing interests, creating alliances, deals, betrayals, etc., separating myself into different identities (some more aggressive, some more cautious, some more strategic, but all with different styles).

There just was not a core "me".

Throughout my life, when I have receive praise or honors, it is like someone else is receiving it, not myself. The distance from myself is just too great.

Likewise, when I would have a physical injury, I was distant from it, and easily ignore the pain. I remember severely hurting my hip at 15, but not wanting to go to the hospital (my dad was out of work and I was worried about the cost, IIRC, and most of all, I didn't want to be a bother and it wasn't like I really mattered....). In the middle of night, I screamed so much that they called an ambulance. Once my mind was asleep, my body could actually acknowledge the pain.

This last year, I have worked really hard to remove the distance between my mind and my body, to integrate it all into one whole, which would also integrate me into the personality that comes out when I am not thinking about it. It truly has been a remarkable experience. But, given that I was talking to my body in third person again this morning, i do have a lot to do still towards integration.
 
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