[Other/Multiple Enneatypes] Differences between 1s and 8s

[kyuuei]

I feel like 1s tend to have more latent anger than 8s. I've never felt the word "anger" was the right word for what goes on with 8s, especially because it's not a continuous state. I've always thought of it more of like "access to violence". Like in a very real way, 8s are always aware of power because violence is always a potential for us. It's funny saying this right after saying that I've never thought about killing someone in another thread (which is true). There's a quote that was on a enneagram site's e8 page about LBJ that I think really captures this:



I take for granted that awareness in my interactions with people. It's not so much "what would it feel like to mutilate this person", but what points would need to be pressed and with what kind of force in order to bring them to their knees.

1s channel that energy in a different way. Their orientation is idealistic or at least has some sense of normative vision around it. I think the gut energy for 1s is about shifting circumstances towards that vision. I don't need for everyone else to fall in line with what makes me happy, because they're not my concern. 1s have to keep track because it disrupts the vision if someone falls out of line.

Perhaps it's the difference between the army and the police? You deploy an army if you have something specific to accomplish strategically. They may train and do other stuff in the interim, but they're not constantly fighting. Police exist to keep order, so they have to be constantly aware of violations to that order.




This goes back to the analogy that I made earlier. 8s "mobilize" and "demobilize" pretty rapidly. Once the issue's handled and we've said what we've needed to say, then we can go back to whatever we were doing before.

It's even more marked for me as an 8 and a Te-dom simply because (to paraphrase Tony Zhou) Te is all about what is in the frame and what is not in the frame. The territorial instincts of an 8 when combined with the focus of extraverted thinking make it very clear what our priorities are. We are pretty much oblivious to anything that's not within that circle. It would be interesting to hear if that resonates with kyuuei and ceecee as they're intuitive dominants.

Ohhh Yes. Definitely. Don't get me wrong.. If someone is way too batty for me, I cut them out of my life.. usually even people I cut out can eventually get to be on civil terms with me if they show they're capable of it, but they never are under my umbrella again. I just stop caring about them. I don't have many enemies because I don't keep those guys around--sometimes to the detriment of the group around me. XD It's pretty inconvenient to hang onto old anger.. there's so many new and exciting things to be angry at! No need to still be all hung up about someone being a jerk yesterday. That's Sooo.. yesterday.

 

[violet_crown]

Ohhh Yes. Definitely. Don't get me wrong.. If someone is way too batty for me, I cut them out of my life.. usually even people I cut out can eventually get to be on civil terms with me if they show they're capable of it, but they never are under my umbrella again. I just stop caring about them. I don't have many enemies because I don't keep those guys around--sometimes to the detriment of the group around me. XD It's pretty inconvenient to hang onto old anger.. there's so many new and exciting things to be angry at! No need to still be all hung up about someone being a jerk yesterday. That's Sooo.. yesterday.

I've always felt that this attitude^^ is the heart of 8 resilience. Even when something pretty awful happens to me, it happens, I deal, it's over. I was trying to explain to someone recently that fear is atypical for me. Somethings freak me out (see other thread on going back to school), but for the most part it's like...jumping off a cliff, I guess. I've flung myself off enough cliffs enough times that I know I can survive the fall. I will be ok eventually. The question then becomes is whatever the thing I'm flinging myself for worth it? I also find the fear of death to be very strange and hard to relate to.

 

[á´…eparted]

I am envious of you 8's and your ability to just forget and let go. It's so alien, and must be really nice/freeing, but also scary to me . I need to try and take lessons from you guys and find a way to integrate that in in a way thay will work for me.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I am envious of you 8's and your ability to just forget and let go. It's so alien, and must be really nice/freeing, but also scary to me . I need to try and take lessons from you guys and find a way to integrate that in in a way thay will work for me.

Yeah, but forgetting can be double-edged sword because problem might still be there even if you "forget it", not to mention that subconsciously this can be just a stereotypical running away from issues.

 

[á´…eparted]

Yeah, but forgetting can be double-edged sword because problem might still be there even if you "forget it", not to mention that subconsciously this can be just a stereotypical running away from issues.

Oh yes of course, I do know that. Like anything though, extremes are bad, and I see that I am too far to the otherside, and need to take lessons to integrate this style to move myself to a more healthy state.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

A long time ago on this forum I posted a reinterpretation of the Enneagram that I had linked in my signature until very recently. I took it out because every time there was a substantial change to this forum, all of the pictures were removed and I'd have to have them returned (it really made no sense without the pictures). Anyway, I only bring this up because I think a lot of stuff like the wings, the lines of integration/disintegration, etc, don't make sense and aren't useful . So, I can't really answer any questions related to those.

In general, I think the trouble with answering such a question though is that any individual can be only half of the answer at best. I am a 1, I can tell you what goes on in my head (which may or may not be reflective of other 1s). If I tell you about an 8, I might just be making a bunch of stuff up.

I don't know if you've seen this before, but there is a least one small writing on the topic.

Misidentifying Ones and Eights

 

[Magic Poriferan]

So, I'll add something rather specific, because it has stood out to me, but I really have no idea if it can be generalized to 1s and 8s.

I don't care about loyalty. In my experience, 8s care about it a lot. For me, loyalty not only doesn't stand as much of a value in its own right, it is sort a quaint obstacle to actually doing things the right way. Lots of purposes come into conflict with loyalty, and to me, they usually trump loyalty. Most moral issues about something other than loyalty and are bigger than loyalty. My experience with 8s (and in real life it is admittedly not extensive), is pretty much the inverse. Loyalty looms large and not a lot of other ideals do. They seem to forge friendships that they want to stick with even in spite of total disagreements on what would be, in my opinion, serious moral issues and even when there is an adversarial tone. In fact, that strikes me as a very type 8 thing, the adversarial friendship. On the other hand, violating perceived loyalty, boy does that seem to piss them off.

 

[ceecee]

A long time ago on this forum I posted a reinterpretation of the Enneagram that I had linked in my signature until very recently. I took it out because every time there was a substantial change to this forum, all of the pictures were removed and I'd have to have them returned (it really made no sense without the pictures). Anyway, I only bring this up because I think a lot of stuff like the wings, the lines of integration/disintegration, etc, don't make sense and aren't useful . So, I can't really answer any questions related to those.

In general, I think the trouble with answerer such a question though is that any individual can be only half of the answer at best. I am a 1, I can tell you what goes on in my head (which may or may not be reflective of other 1s). If I tell you about an 8, I might just be making a bunch of stuff up.

I don't know if you've seen this before, but there is a least one small writing on the topic.

Misidentifying Ones and Eights

Interesting read. I like how they use the term "their people". I say that and people look at me strange but that's how I feel - my people. Not that I'm their ruler, I care about them. I don't view 1's as too weak to be strong but I don't know many at all.

 

[Virtual ghost]

A long time ago on this forum I posted a reinterpretation of the Enneagram that I had linked in my signature until very recently. I took it out because every time there was a substantial change to this forum, all of the pictures were removed and I'd have to have them returned (it really made no sense without the pictures). Anyway, I only bring this up because I think a lot of stuff like the wings, the lines of integration/disintegration, etc, don't make sense and aren't useful . So, I can't really answer any questions related to those.

In general, I think the trouble with answerer such a question though is that any individual can be only half of the answer at best. I am a 1, I can tell you what goes on in my head (which may or may not be reflective of other 1s). If I tell you about an 8, I might just be making a bunch of stuff up.

I don't know if you've seen this before, but there is a least one small writing on the topic.

Misidentifying Ones and Eights

I think I saw this.


Not so long ago I had a thread that says that all of the type profiles in typology are biased towards America or at least 1th world. In other words what bothers is what happens if environment si not so structured/safe. Very recently I said in another thread that I was hidding from military air strikes as a child ... since I was hidding from airstrikes as a child. However by the reaction of others I have a feeling that I said something that is over the line. It wasn't bad it was just over the line in a certain social sense, while to me this is normal and all people of my age around me went through the same thing. What opens the whole new horrizon in typology because in deveoloped world 1s mostly just have to keep the system in place and make sure that everthing is as it should be. However if that is not the case 1 first has to make sure that there is a system he and others have to maintain, what is quite a task. Not to mention that this will probably provoke opposition that has to be defeated in order that vision will come to life. However that probably wouldn't not be possible if 1 doesn't apply pretty 8ish way of doing things.


Also you have a different paradox. Before war turned large part of my country into rubble my country was Communist. In other words all houses, flats, factories, schools, companies, healthcare provides, food makers etc. were owned 100% by the government. What creates a problem because in such environment 8s shouldn't exist becuse this evironment is 100% representation of their basic fears. However I think that there where 8s in such society, but they were defined somewhat differently.



In other words with radically different context the whole system of typology can simply brake. Therefore for me it is pretty hard to see the clear difference between 1 and 8.

 

[EJCC]

I hope e8s don't see me as "lily-livered and bloodless"... That's kind of depressing.

Besides that, I really liked that article.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I hope e8s don't see me as "lily-livered and bloodless"... That's kind of depressing.

I think that this depends on how much stereotypically 8 they are and are they males.

 

[á´…eparted]

So, I'll add something rather specific, because it has stood out to me, but I really have no idea if it can be generalized to 1s and 8s.

I don't care about loyalty. In my experience, 8s care about it a lot. For me, loyalty not only doesn't stand as much of a value in its own right, it is sort a quaint obstacle to actually doing things the right way. Lots of purposes come into conflict with loyalty, and to me, they usually trump loyalty. Most moral issues about something other than loyalty and are bigger than loyalty. My experience with 8s (and in real life it is admittedly not extensive), is pretty much the inverse. Loyalty looms large and not a lot of other ideals do. They seem to forge friendships that they want to stick with even in spite of total disagreements on what would be, in my opinion, serious moral issues and even when there is an adversarial tone. In fact, that strikes me as a very type 8 thing, the adversarial friendship. On the other hand, violating perceived loyalty, boy does that seem to piss them off.

I feel this, and am the exact same way. Loyalty is a non-factor to me as it's purely incidental. I will be effectively loyal to people, but if I am given a reason to drop that loyalty it happens easily. 8's indeed seem to care FAR more about loyalty than I do. For me it's just a non factor.

Further, I will readily run counter to said loyalty if doing the right thing requires it. However, I've learned over the years that loyalty matters A LOT to people, and nothing trumps it for them, so I am very careful with how I break it so I can soften the impact as much as possible. Though this is generally in cases where it's a temporary break in loyalty (permanent break is different). Breaking loyalty like this has never been an issue, and I tamp down issues quickly if they do rise.

Like you, one of the biggest things that will make me permanently drop loyalty to someone (or render me forever unable to forge it), is if I learn one of their personal/political/moral values is too violating of the big picture. If it is, goodbye. It's like the loyalty was never there in the first place. As the article you linked quoted: justice > loyalty. I am loyal to ideas, not people.

I should point out I see loyalty as a sliding scale, and it's just not a rigid concept to me. I wouldn't be surprised if 8's see it more rigidly.

Edit: I should clarify this (partly cause I don't want you 8's to think ill of me ). Eventually (and sometimes it's quick, but generally no) people can ascend to effectively unbreakable loyalty. Once I get to know a person well enough and we get really close, I will have eventually exausted through my entire "list" of things that could render someone at risk to losing my loyalty (or it never forming). It can get damaged, but it can also be repaired. It's more it can't be outright broken barring something seriously unusual. Once that point is reached, I just tell someone I am 100% loyal to them (well, if they ask, and I have been asked before. I just assume people can tell), because I am unable to think of any possible case that could force me to break it. I have essentially 0 trust issues with people cause I got a very good sniffer for good/bad people. Proof positive: I can't recall anyone who has ever crossed my "effectively 100% loyal" threshold who has done something to break it. Once you're over that, you're in. The odds of them breaking it are so low that I just ignore those odds. Hence I say I am "effectively loyal". Granted, that list is pretty small. I also have different categories I'm not mentioning... I have a lot of categories (that's what happens when you have an Fe-dom who is a 1w2 lol).

 

[miss fortune]

I have loyalty to a few people... and my loyalty to them is pretty fucking unshakable to the point where they'd have to do something drastically terrible for me to say "fuck it" and move on from them (i.e. cheating on me is always a good way to make sure that I want absolutely nothing to do with you ever again... because you broke my trust). I also tend to have loyalty to things like my department at work or to dogs (all dogs... I love dogs and people who hurt dogs need to be hurt because they are terrible people). It's only a handful of things and people that I'm really loyal to though and other than that I'll be nice enough, but don't expect for me to shiv someone for you

Not speaking for all 8s there though

also I do like 1s... I think I've made that clear enough... something about their fussiness and when they get all grumpy over things that I think are trivial... it's adorable and I want to ruffle their hair (further upsetting them by messing up something ELSE) and then take them home and bake them some cookies or something not to mention the desire to beat up anyone else who messes up their things and upsets them

and also, as [MENTION=7254]Wind Up Rex[/MENTION] said... I'm pretty happy to put myself between the people I care about (and, because I'm kinna dumb, even perfect strangers at times) and harm because I know that I can handle whatever it is, but I'm not so sure about them

(just more thoughts on things that have been said since)

 

[ARET45]

They rarely look similar. 1s are more focused on being good/right and 8s want to be powerful/influential. The 8w9 can almost appear like a 9 at times. Both can be quite independent, but the 1 is probably the introverted type overall. At least in how they vibe. 8 has a much more expansive energy and the vibe is somehow more forgiving. Both are often involved, for different reasons.

 

[Ursa]

1s and 8s are similar in that they are both assertive, no-nonsense, stubborn, and prone to wrath. The key distinctions lie in their respective motivations: 1s desire above all else to be correct and incorruptible. They see the world as corrupt and so their most basic reaction to that perception is to rise above the muck so as not to be seduced by it. As a result, 1s have a propensity to moralize. They have an intense inner and outer critic about what "should be." As a body type, like 8s, they are driven to action.

8s, on the other hand, desire power and control. They despise weakness and vulnerability, and tend to be territorial. Their innocent inner child, who wants desperately to love others and be to loved, has been encased in an protective adamantine shell. 8s are insensitive to their own emotions because to do otherwise would be to admit vulnerability. 8s tend to be down-to-earth and lack the idealism that 1s have. Healthy 8s have a desire to protect others, but are nonetheless still motivated by a need to be in control, because to be controlled means to be victimized.

1s can sometimes appear like 8s because many 1s want the control and authority that 8s end up with. But 1s want to use that position to exact their moral standards on the system; 8s want authority to avoid victimization.

 

[á´…eparted]

They rarely look similar. 1s are more focused on being good/right and 8s want to be powerful/influential. The 8w9 can almost appear like a 9 at times. Both can be quite independent, but the 1 is probably the introverted type overall. At least in how they vibe. 8 has a much more expansive energy and the vibe is somehow more forgiving. Both are often involved, for different reasons.

Oh you clearly haven't met me yet. I am really extroverted and quite effusive . The latter doesn't really come across on the forums though.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Anger is funny thing. My parents were good friensd with couple that was ISFP guy and ENFJ woman, also I pretty sure that ENFJ was actually 1w2.


She was very open and optimistic person, she was honestly smilling most of the time, she turned her house into really plesant place to live, she had a career, she helped various people that were in need, she traveled the world, etc. She trully was pretty perfect in every regard, but there was a dirty secret. The couple had one one random computer in one of the the back room in their house and that computer was full of very violent and butchery video games that she played in free time. She even got somewhat addicted to this and it was funny to see so pure female person in her 50s doing something like this. (especially about 15-20 years ago) To me this was always strange but as I have learned about enneagram it simply made perfect sense. At that time I had a number of debates about how to beat various game bosses and problematic areas and therefore I am certain she was quite into gameing ... bacause here anger made here play all of that messy games.

 

[Captain_Invincible]

If forgetting and letting go is an 8 trait, then I'm pretty much an 8w8.

 

[ARET45]

Oh you clearly haven't met me yet. I am really extroverted and quite effusive . The latter doesn't really come across on the forums though.

True for 1w2! I was talking more about 8w9 vs 1w9... Yes 1w2 can be quite extroverted, involved, as the 2 wing makes them more people oriented. 1w2 can often appear as one of the most effusive/demonstrative types. The 2 wing is more enthusiastic, the 9 wing is more remote in vibe.

The vibe of the 1w2 is still, rarely similar to the vibe of the 8.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Is it reasonable to say that Bernie and Trump or at least public images are pretty good example of 1 vs. 8 ?