[Type 4] Calling the Dauntless (E4 SP/SX)

[Qlip]

CORRECTION: Dauntless are E4 SP, SX not necessary.

It seems that e4's are much more diverse between instinctual stackings, and also very divergent from the normal stacking descriptions. A good example is the e4 sp, which is often titled as "Dauntless." They tend to exhibit behaviors that bring to mind either sx or e6 counterphobic behaviour. Here's a description:

Enneagram Central - Subtype Four Self Preservation

...

Self-Preservation Fours are termed Dauntless by the Enneagram tradition. The compulsion is to spice things up in order to make sure that I am special. To avoid the ordinary, Self-Preservation Fours take reckless chances, are drawn to the bizarre, even death, and see their lives as catastrophes. An Enneagram coach might reframe a chronicle of emotional turmoil as bragging: "I have more turmoil than anyone."

...

How do you relate to this description? Tell me about your experiences of dauntless behavior. If you're an e4 of any stacking or an e6, do you find any familiarity in this? Is this the same as being counterphobic?

 

[chickpea]

yes, i relate quite a bit. i consider sp-dom on occasion, but only because of the 4-specific descriptions and not the general ones. i'm not sure which is supposed to be more relevant.

 

[Evee]

 

[OrangeAppled]

I relate more to the Naranjo description of the sp 4 or to oceanmoonshine's than the "dauntless" descripion here. On that site, the sx 4 fits me better. It seems at odds with other takes on the subtypes for 4, because most make the sx 4 to be the extreme, competative one who "acts out", not the sp 4.

I don't think I am a huge risk-taker with safety, although safety is not much of an issue in my mind, so sometimes I do things out of naivete.

SP to me is a kind of deluded self-soothing which actually becomes masochism. There is "envy denial", aka, I don't want the shame of needing anyone/anything, and so I comfort myself. I compensate for bad feelings with indulgences and creativity. This is masochistic because it cuts me off from other people or is too indulgent (ie retail therapy), and the isolation fuels other 4 fixations (being defective, insignificant, ashamed, etc). I think sp 4s are the most self-contained 4s, although I am less like that with age. I was super withdrawn as an adolescent and teen, and as a young child, I was very independent and disliked any sense of "need" or vulnerability with people. I don't know how much of this could be 5 wing and introversion stuff though.

I also struggle with caring for myself practically - I dont manage sleep schedules or regular eating well. It can be too little or too much. That's a common N issue though too.

 

[Qlip]

It was this description that made me decide on my instinctual stacking, I relate to very much. I was trying to find it when I created this thread, but I ran out of time:

Sandra Maitri: The Spiritual Dimensions of the Enneagram

Self-Preservation 4: Dauntlessness
The term given by Ichazo for Self-preservation Fours is defensive action, as opposed to dauntlessness, which Naranjo associated with this subtype. Ichazo, quoted by John Lilly and Joseph Hart, defines defensive action as "protecting one's dream of the future." Rather than be limited by their circumstances, they wil rashly go after what they want and feel that they must have to survive. They take action to preserve themselves but do not consider the consequences, and actually put their survival in peril. A Self-preservation Four might, for instance, buy herself all sorts of beautiful things that she feels she can't live without, and end up sliding deeply into debt. Or, feeling unable to bear the constraints of a boring job, she might throw caution to the wind and on the spur of the moment buy herself a ticket to some exotic island. The passion of envy manifests here as wanting the security and material gratificatons others seem to possess, and recklessly striking out to get them.

I have a very specific relationship to my material needs, they feel very much like an extension of me. I've had depression in the past, which manifested in despairing in how little what surrounded me reflected me. I tend towards austere and spartan, but it's a very conscious and forefront choice as a reflection of my inner world.

I have a friend, who I believe is INFP 4w3 sp/sx, and he sounds much more like you describe. He is supremely aesthetic towards the indulgent side. But the guy is as or more impulsive than I am. And, it happens in similar patterns, usually in connection to maintaining or procuring an aesthetic, be it retaining a ragged edge, baffling onlookers, or filling out some sort of narrative he created for himself.

His living room is indie midmodern and oh so hip, and his bathroom is the most depressing thing I've seen in my life and his kitchen unused.

 

[Starry]

CORRECTION: Dauntless are E4 SP, SX not necessary.

It seems that e4's are much more diverse between instinctual stackings, and also very divergent from the normal stacking descriptions. A good example is the e4 sp, which is often titled as "Dauntless." They tend to exhibit behaviors that bring to mind either sx or e6 counterphobic behaviour. Here's a description:

Enneagram Central - Subtype Four Self Preservation



How do you relate to this description? Tell me about your experiences of dauntless behavior. If you're an e4 of any stacking or an e6, do you find any familiarity in this? Is this the same as being counterphobic?

Kurt Cobain is in the media again with the release of this latest documentary (which I recently learned the daughter created and/or produced?) And so I thought I would say that I had always typed him sx/sp. <-And by that I mean...that was the extent of it. IOW, I could never decide for myself whether I thought he was 4w5 or 5w4. But he obviously possessed the "most conflicted" instinctual stacking...that being the always interesting sx/sp.

That was until I saw [MENTION=7991]chickpea[/MENTION] type him as sp/sx...which immediately called to mind this description I would have never thought to consider previously. And it was a true 'holy shit' moment. chickpea had made typing Kurt Cobain a billion times easier...and something the whole family can enjoy.


I do take some issue with the description... I've never liked the use of the word "special"...in all 4 descriptions...but especially for the 4 sp. All image types have the greatest capacity for authenticity imo...but for every *flashy* 4 sp...there will be an entirely down-to-earth, humble albeit aggressive 4 sp as well. To me it's about significance or "standing up and being accounted for" as opposed to being understood as *special.* A lot of 4s over-embrace the ordinary and flawed because there's Truth in those things. And it's this relationship with what is profoundly real that does make a good deal of 4 sps drawn to birth and death and blood and guts...but not automatically in a depressive, forlorn way. There are a good number of 4s that maintain a sense of optimism via the 4/7 wormhole (which should not to be confused with positive outlook...just in case there's anyone around that seems to present with high degree of that strictly 7 side of the whole thing...)

Anyway, I'm not going to mention her because I know she doesn't like people typing her... but to make this point I'm left with no choice.

prplchz is about as 4w5 sp as it gets.

 

[senza tema]

It was this description that made me decide on my instinctual stacking, I relate to very much. I was trying to find it when I created this thread, but I ran out of time:



I have a very specific relationship to my material needs, they feel very much like an extension of me. I've had depression in the past, which manifested in despairing in how little what surrounded me reflected me. I tend towards austere and spartan, but it's a very conscious and forefront choice as a reflection of my inner world.

I have a friend, who I believe is INFP 4w3 sp/sx, and he sounds much more like you describe. He is supremely aesthetic towards the indulgent side. But the guy is as or more impulsive than I am. And, it happens in similar patterns, usually in connection to maintaining or procuring an aesthetic, be it retaining a ragged edge, baffling onlookers, or filling out some sort of narrative he created for himself.

His living room is indie midmodern and oh so hip, and his bathroom is the most depressing thing I've seen in my life and his kitchen unused.

It's interesting that you're saying this because I don't usually see ENFPs as very physically or materially oriented at all. I guess a fixation on personal style and physical manifestations thereof could be a 4 sp thing ...

 

[á´…eparted]

I actually relate to this partially. I think it's because of two reasons, I am sp, and 4 is where 1's dissolve to. To further support this, this tends to be more frequent with me when I am not doing so hot. That said I am actively repelled by the whole "specialness" thing and I sprint in the opposite direction if I catch myself or think I am doing or thinking anything that is trying to promote that for the sake of. *gag* Or worse, thinking that I have it worse than everyone and "no one understands me", I ABSOLUTELY HATE MYSELF when I get in modes like that. I won't actively think that, but subconsciously by getting stuck in disaster "no way out" black and white thinking, and overall thinking "dooooommmmm". When I come out of it I feel like I need to scour myself with a steel will brillow pad in a bath of acid.

The biggest thing is I am hugely drawn to the bizarre, particularly if it has a dark twist or is surreal (I love surrealism). While I actively look for moments in life that are fulfilling and exciting, there is a part of me that is woefully bored with reality and wishes the extraordinary were real. The desire for that increases when things are bad and I am not being fulfilled. Either way diving into fantasy is definitely a thing, in particular if it's grounded in reality in some way (that makes it feel more "real").

 

[OrangeAppled]

This brief description works better for me (from enneagram worldwide):

Self-preservation: Dauntlessness – The Creative Individualist
This subtype is willing to jump into new situations, to pack up and move, to get going or take risks when the preservation instinct is triggered, or when an authentic life seems elsewhere. To others, these actions may seem reckless, like throwing caution to the wind, but it can work well with an unorthodox, creative or artistic style. The tension here is between wanting to acquire material security and feeling detached from it all.

More on Naranjo's sp 4 later.

 

[Entropic]

I actually relate to this partially. I think it's because of two reasons, I am sp, and 4 is where 1's dissolve to. To further support this, this tends to be more frequent with me when I am not doing so hot. That said I am actively repelled by the whole "specialness" thing and I sprint in the opposite direction if I catch myself or think I am doing or thinking anything that is trying to promote that for the sake of. *gag* Or worse, thinking that I have it worse than everyone and "no one understands me", I ABSOLUTELY HATE MYSELF when I get in modes like that. I won't actively think that, but subconsciously by getting stuck in disaster "no way out" black and white thinking, and overall thinking "dooooommmmm". When I come out of it I feel like I need to scour myself with a steel will brillow pad in a bath of acid.

The biggest thing is I am hugely drawn to the bizarre, particularly if it has a dark twist or is surreal (I love surrealism). While I actively look for moments in life that are fulfilling and exciting, there is a part of me that is woefully bored with reality and wishes the extraordinary were real. The desire for that increases when things are bad and I am not being fulfilled. Either way diving into fantasy is definitely a thing, in particular if it's grounded in reality in some way (that makes it feel more "real").

I know a 1 who reacts exactly like this as well. I share a somewhat similar repulsion for 5s.

 

[small.wonder]

Interesting. My perception of Sp 4 is much more centered around Naranjo's definition (which the word "dauntless" still arguably applies to): long-suffering, or possessing a heroic ability to endure suffering-- he specifies that this is not martyr-like, but a more noble endurance, though definitely dark (I believe he uses the imagery of snuffing a match with ones finger tips).

I guess this spontaneous, wistful thing in the OP sounds like a total lack of concern or focus on Self Preservation to me... Or at least what's its traditionaly described as. That said, it also sounds thoroughly and hella 4. So are we just saying that all 4's care more about their feelings than their well being? And even for a 4 that prioritizes Self Preservation, that means they are preserving their feelings and internal world (by pursuing it above their actual physical well being)? Is that right?

I guess I always saw it more like the SP 4 (because they are the counter type) is the only variety of Individualist that would suffer through a job, or circumstances that cause them suffering-- because they value material provision, sustenance and other SP things above all else. That that process becomes totally masocistic, in that they are enduring pain at the price of preserving the self.

Please know, I'm just processing and askng questions (because this is fascinating) not assuming one way or the other. Just trying to reconcile to two differing descriptions. I do love this stuff though, great thread!

 

[l0vemyth]

try looking at it this way perhaps. the sp four is willing to go to the ends of the earth and their own internal resources to preserve the sanctity of the "self". it is NOT material things you are willing to murder yourself for but your absolute worth and integrity (whatever that means).

my own easy, kind example is the insanity of me early in my career driving a truck doing port work, in a hot summer, in a rig with no ac. making crap pay, nevermind. i was lucky i didn't get heat stroke. and i mean that in that i literally have no idea how i managed to not get heat stroke.

it was insanely masochistic- but looking at it now- it's obvious that i was reacting to my insecurities of weather or not i measured up. and suffering and surviving and risking my life to claim it- was supposed to give me a place.

but there are other ways this gets expressed. what's important is that we RISK in order to obtain safety for the "self" as understood in a four context. that is emotionally, identity, idealized image, status etc.

however the softer side of sears- i also think the description of emotional reactions to environments is very valid.

i think for sp four most would recognize in themselves though the capacity for a basically insane determination and will. like a dangerous and potentially deranged kind. lol. maybe that's just me.

 

[ARET45]

The sp 4w3 is the subtype of 4 which most exemplifies the 'dauntless' archetype.

The 4w5 is less dauntless, as the 5 wing adds a security seeking element. The 3 wing is more adventurous/spontaneous/adaptive to change.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I've been doing a lot of research on enneagram and instinctual combinations, and I'm slowly gaining a sense of understanding the deeper I dive in objectively. The Sp 4 (haha, that autocorrected to "Special 4" just now) is sometimes compared to type 7 because they may have a tendency to avoid their pain through almost a lighthearted adventurous presentation of self. They are different from the 7 though in that they are still emotionally driven creatures who don't detach from their feelings. Essentially, they have accepted that suffering is in the cards for them, so it's best to just trudge on and get things done and put on a smile or small amusing show so as not to create a spectacle of themselves. I could be mistaken, but I also envision this type in the following scenario:

Sp 4 has had a stressful day work and comes home to find a small mess and their partner has yet to start dinner. Not wanting to succumb to their feelings, they may silently clean the mess and start dinner, all while feeling somewhat passive aggressive and hoping that their partner will notice their quiet underplayed sacrifice and jump in to their aide, perhaps paying the 4 special attention by warmly rubbing their shoulders and telling them to sit down and relax while the partner finishes dinner.​

Maybe my example is off, but when contrasted with the So and Sx 4 respectively, you'd be more likely to see a whiny or even weepy 4 lamenting over their day (So) or an irritable displeased 4 angrily snapping that they "had a shit day at work and come home to find a mess and no dinner." (Sx)

Looking back at myself over the years, I realize a couple things: I never used to express shame. My comparisons were silent and I avoided crying in front of people as much as possible, and I rarely if ever spoke of my childhood pain or pain in general. I also lack an intentionally aggressive competitive streak. Rather, I've always referred to myself as "self-competitive." I also don't relate to the hatred that is at the core of the Sx 4 and honestly, I think that shows in my behavior.

I would have NEVER in a million years considered any possibility of being Sp-first until I was able to assimilate the sometimes contradictory and self-sabotaging nature of the Sp 4. Long story short, I can relate to the Sp 4 just as much if not more than the Sx 4. I still maintain than any similarities in my behavior to the So 4 are purely depressive in nature and not inherent to my being and have only been a part of my life for the last few years.

Here is a partial description of the Sp/Sx 4 and I've circled the parts that especially resonate with me:

If there is anyone else who understands the instincts of 4's better than I admittedly do at this point, feel free to drop a knowledge bomb.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Also, in the dinner scenario above, or any similar scenario really, I think the Sp 4 is likely to decline offers of assistance. I don't think they like asking for or accepting help and it takes patience and persistence from those in their lives who wish to help them. They are highly self-reliant individuals, but the Sp/Sx in particular wishes for a partner who's patient, kind, and strong enough to weasel their way through the barricades the Sp 4 has built around themself ("themself" should totally be a real word by now and I'm gonna use it).

 

[Galena]

Here is a partial description of the Sp/Sx 4 and I've circled the parts that especially resonate with me:

If there is anyone else who understands the instincts of 4's better than I admittedly do at this point, feel free to drop a knowledge bomb.

I agree that you seem more sp 4 than so 4, according to the type specific descriptions. Where did the spoilered description come from?

Personally, I typed this way for a while, but now it's the 4 I think I'm the least like of all. I'd sooner be so-dom myself.

 

[Hiraeth]

Yeah, this is why I've changed my instinctual stacking from sp/sx to so/sp. I'm definitely not the dauntless type. Although, I'm also not the overly whiny type either and can appear very much like an sp/sx at times, as I tend to keep to myself to where I can seem passive aggressive and withdrawn. In addition, I avoid asking for help as long as I can bear too, and am one of those 'silent criers.' However, I am very much aware about how I don't fit in among people through group settings. I also have a large tendency to avoid confrontation like the plague and relate highly to the sx blindspot, so I think I am most likely so/sp due to the above reasons and me being definitely contraflow too. I can relate heavily to both instinctual typings though.

Also, being a 4w3 doesn't necessarily mean I will be more dauntless than a 4w5. I actually appear a lot like a 4w5 on the surface. My 3 wing is based on my desires and fears aligning with a 3. It's NOT based on behavior. I don't know though, maybe I'm just an atypical 4w3.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I agree that you seem more sp 4 than so 4, according to the type specific descriptions. Where did the spoilered description come from?

Personally, I typed this way for a while, but now it's the 4 I think I'm the least like of all. I'd sooner be so-dom myself.

Here is the site I got the info from: Type 4 - Enneagram
Also, sorry about the obnoxiously large spoiler image... I did a screenshot on my phone and didn't realize it'd turn out so.

I like the descriptions here. I can relate to points in each instinct, but mostly to Sp and Sx. I cannot for the life of me though recognize any cut-throat competition or need to be the best at whatever costs. I have never done something malicious or even inconsiderate to another in order to climb higher. I do have anger management issues, but perhaps that's not entirely tied into instincts in my case. I am definitely the type of person though to say "I'm fine" if you ask me what is wrong and do my best to downplay whatever is going on. I am extremely stubborn in this sense. In fact, all the sharing I have done here has been a desperate attempt to claw out of depression and has usually left me feeling overly exposed in the end and made me want to delete all my personal posts and blog and run away.

Anyway, I'm going to need to do more research and reflect more on pre-depressed me before I can decide if I am Sx or Sp first. I find that all of the instincts for 4s seem a little wonky compared to the other enneagram types, perhaps because of the differentiated nature of 4s.

Yeah, this is why I've changed my instinctual stacking from sp/sx to so/sp. I'm definitely not the dauntless type. Although, I'm also not the overly whiny type either and can appear very much like an sp/sx at times, as I tend to keep to myself to where I can seem passive aggressive and withdrawn. In addition, I avoid asking for help as long as I can bear too, and am one of those 'silent criers.' However, I am very much aware about how I don't fit in among people through group settings. I also have a large tendency to avoid confrontation like the plague and relate highly to the sx blindspot, so I think I am most likely so/sp due to the above reasons and me being definitely contraflow too. I can relate heavily to both instinctual typings though.

Also, being a 4w3 doesn't necessarily mean I will be more dauntless than a 4w5. I actually appear a lot like a 4w5 on the surface. My 3 wing is based on my desires and fears aligning with a 3. It's NOT based on behavior. I don't know though, maybe I'm just an atypical 4w3.

One thing I have come to realize is that I am not really sure how others view me. I do tend to wonder if people dislike me, but it's more that I sort of assume that they do by hyper-analyzing their body language and tone and reading into things too much. Ultimately, I think that I actually have very little insight into how others actually view me and I am probably wrong more often than I am right. Part of me cares and doesn't want to be hated or judged negatively by others, and part of me is like "meh, I don't really even like the majority of you anyway." It's that whole "you have to be somewhat different for me to be drawn to you" thing. The duality of 4s is really interesting and actually quite fake when you think about it.

Which brings me to my next point: I relate more to 3 than I previously used to, but not enough to call myself a 4w3. The thing with 3s is that they are worried that their projected image doesn't match their real self and that people will "figure them out." At least that's how I look at 4s with a 3-wing. I do relate to this a bit, but I think the fact that I am constantly researching that which intrigues me, and in particular researching ways to better understand or take care of/express myself points more to the 5-wing. I cannot go a day without Googling and reading and learning and tweaking my perceptions and understanding of self and others. I'm also surprisingly private irl and extremely picky about who I let into my life, which frustrates people who think of me as a friend (when you work one-on-one with someone for a year or two, and they never show up to anything you invite them to, it probably feels a bit like they don't like you, but I just don't develop close bonds easily and am overly choosy about whom I want to dedicate time to).

I also think that my career struggles seem more in line with a 4w5, as I'm really not willing to sacrifice my authenticity in the name of "success." At the same time, I remain in a dead-end job that has sucked the life out of me because it provides me with the best financial outcome at the moment and I am also hard on myself in the sense that I feel that I need to try harder to "suck it up." I still have hope that I'll be able to break through these challenges, but deep down inside, I don't think that I can do it alone (without a lover) because I am so emotionally overwhelmed internally that I feel like I need to have someone to come home to and "melt" into. I need a rock.

I could go on and on, but I'll try not to talk about myself for too long

 

[❀༺♥༻ℭ𝔞𝔢𝔩𝔦𝔞_𝔄𝔦𝔰𝔩𝔦𝔫𝔤༺♥༻❀༺]

[MENTION=31348]Peter Deadpan[/MENTION], I don't know if you've read this before, but there's a description by Beatrice Chestnut on type 4s with the different variants. I used to think I was sx/sp, but the combination of sx and 4 never really fit. I also thought I couldnt really be an sp. Til I read more on sp 4s that is. I hope these will help a little

[Enneagram Type 4] Self-Preservation Four description (according to Beatrice Chestnut).

[Enneagram Type 4] Sexual Four description (according to Beatrice Chestnut).

Edit: here's another link I found super useful c: Information On the Instinctual Variants : I Am a Four On the Enneagram Story & Experience

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I didn't really think about this until today, but one of my all time favorite quotes comes from Ray LaMontagne's song Empty and is a good representation of 4 Sp:

"Well I looked my demons in the eyes
Lay bare my chest
Said do your best
To destroy me

See I've been to hell and back
So many times
I must admit
You kinda bore me"​

(Ray LaMontagne is a 4w5 Sp/Sx ISFP)