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  1. #21
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    It's actually angering to me to consider that people are for things, or that utility is a measure of a person.
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  2. #22
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    It's actually angering to me to consider that people are for things, or that utility is a measure of a person.
    Why? It's not the entire picture of a person, but it's absolutely a factor.
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  3. #23
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Why? It's not the entire picture of a person, but it's absolutely a factor.
    Usage and practicality are all relative to a goal, a purpose, perhaps you can measure a particular human by their performance within a role that way in. But to say that people have objective value is to imply that there is a universal purpose, and that idea has caused a lot of trouble in the world.

  4. #24
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Usage and practicality are all relative to a goal, a purpose, perhaps you can measure a particular human by their performance within a role that way in. But to say that people have objective value is to imply that there is a universal purpose, and that idea has caused a lot of trouble in the world.
    Well, it depends on how you define a goal, but that's not all that matters. We live in a modern world, and there are basic things that we have to do in order to function in it. Because of that, the ability to, and things people bring to better things within this framework, do bring value.

    I don't think saying someone has objective value suggests universal purpose at all.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
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  5. #25
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Well, it depends on how you define a goal, but that's not all that matters. We live in a modern world, and there are basic things that we have to do in order to function in it. Because of that, the ability to, and things people bring to better things within this framework, do bring value.

    I don't think saying someone has objective value suggests universal purpose at all.
    Well, we don't all live in the modern world, do we? I would hazard to say most of us on this forum does, but we are such a small part of the world. The Western world isn't even the largest part of the world, although it certainly has made some waves. And there are so many different ways to live, even in the U.S..

    Anyway, in response to the bolded, an apple is good if it is sweet for a kid, an apple is good if it's tart for a granny baking a pie. Who decides how a person is good?

  6. #26
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Well, we don't all live in the modern world, do we? I would hazard to say most of us on this forum does, but we are such a small part of the world. The Western world isn't even the largest part of the world, although it certainly has made some waves. And there are so many different ways to live, even in the U.S..

    Anyway, in response to the bolded, an apple is good if it is sweet for a kid, an apple is good if it's tart for a granny baking a pie. Who decides how a person is good?
    Even in non-modern society, there are practical things that we need to be able to do to survive: cook, clean, care for the young. Etc. Those people who have those practical skills give them value. Just as the artist who richens the world is given value for that. Just as the confidant who give intangible support to others is given value for that. There are countless things that give someone value. Tangible, or intangible. Could we measure that and say some people are better than others? Yes. Should we? No. There is almost no situations (barring life and death scenarios, and even then that's a mabye) that doing so would be good.

    It's not a binary thing to decide if something is good or bad, there are endless factors that add up to mean something is good or bad overall. Even then, it can still also be taken case by case for an individual. Value is something that both has large bulk value, and individual value. Those things will always exist. They're just independent and taken into account when a situation would call for one or the other.
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  7. #27
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Well, it depends on how you define a goal, but that's not all that matters. We live in a modern world, and there are basic things that we have to do in order to function in it. Because of that, the ability to, and things people bring to better things within this framework, do bring value.

    I don't think saying someone has objective value suggests universal purpose at all.
    Being valued within a terribly flawed framework that has so many moral and ethical violations wouldn't be a huge source of pride for me.... To subvert it by not playing its game has a nobility, IMO.

    I do recall social 4s and 5s being described as critics of their society and culture, and that surely has value if it leads to positive changes. Obviously, various forms of art have done just that.

    The problem is the measurable aspect, which is hard to apply to a type that is not often doing things which can be weighed with impersonal measures. So much is subjective, but many choose to share subjective standards for the sake of competition to bolster their ego.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  8. #28
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Even in non-modern society, there are practical things that we need to be able to do to survive: cook, clean, care for the young. Etc. Those people who have those practical skills give them value. Just as the artist who richens the world is given value for that. Just as the confidant who give intangible support to others is given value for that. There are countless things that give someone value. Tangible, or intangible. Could we measure that and say some people are better than others? Yes. Should we? No. There is almost no situations (barring life and death scenarios, and even then that's a mabye) that doing so would be good.

    It's not a binary thing to decide if something is good or bad, there are endless factors that add up to mean something is good or bad overall. Even then, it can still also be taken case by case for an individual. Value is something that both has large bulk value, and individual value. Those things will always exist. They're just independent and taken into account when a situation would call for one or the other.
    Hah, your Fe is showing.

    You are basically saying that people have objective value when within a subjective situation, this is the same as how I mentioned that value can only be judged against a goal. :P I don't feel this is what is meant by objective, but it does mean that we are in agreement.

    So, as a thought experiment, let's take a person and change his value. Being that a person's value can be decided by their surroundings, that person could modify their value by changing his/her surroundings, correct? Also a person could change their value by improving a skill.

    What if value was decided internally, by how a person feels about themselves, regardless of the 'goal'? What if a person feels quite valuable? What if they think less of themselves? What is indicative of their value, their own valuation or their surroundings, both of which are not really objective? I'll offer that this entirely depends on the person, whether they're the type to value the internal or the external, but this is also subjective to themselves.

    I do think that there is a kind of objective goal, a general will to survive and function, as an individual and as a culture. But this is just somewhat statistically universal, not actually.

  9. #29
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Being valued within a terribly flawed framework that has so many moral and ethical violations wouldn't be a huge source of pride for me.... To subvert it by not playing its game has a nobility, IMO.

    I do recall social 4s and 5s being described as critics of their society and culture, and that surely has value if it leads to positive changes. Obviously, various forms of art have done just that.

    The problem is the measurable aspect, which is hard to apply to a type that is not often doing things which can be weighed with impersonal measures. So much is subjective, but many choose to share subjective standards for the sake of competition to bolster their ego.
    See my post above yours for a bit more clarification.

    I admit this is rather alien territory for me as this is quite counter to how I operate. I definitely derive a large portion of my value based off how I relate to, function, and contribute to society as I live in it. I didn't chose to be born in the life that I have, but it is what I have. To me it's just flat irrational to buck the system, something that I could never, ever change, and refuse to mold to it. I understand for 4's in particular this would cause quite the indigestion at even considering it. Further, I would not devalue someone for bucking it (within reason, but going further on this would become a very tangential discussion). Though I'd be lying if I said I was not very put off by people who play the "fuck the system! ...because it's the system!" game, and it's something I can not value.

    The point is though, it's still a framework, and it still has value. It's pervasive enough that I think it's definitely fair to measure off of it. However, value can still be measured outside of that. Another way of putting it would be it could be possible for someone to have very little value to society as a whole, but have a ton of value to an individual on matters that don't effect society whatsoever. All told, they still have value.

    A decent analogy would be temperature: Kelvin, Celsius, Fahrenheit. They all measure they same thing, just on different reference points.
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  10. #30
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Hah, your Fe is showing.

    You are basically saying that people have objective value when within a subjective situation, this is the same as how I mentioned that value can only be judged against a goal. :P I don't feel this is what is meant by objective, but it does mean that we are in agreement.

    So, as a thought experiment, let's take a person and change his value. Being that a person's value can be decided by their surroundings, that person could modify their value by changing his/her surroundings, correct? Also a person could change their value by improving a skill.

    What if value was decided internally, by how a person feels about themselves, regardless of the 'goal'? What if a person feels quite valuable? What if they think less of themselves? What is indicative of their value, their own valuation or their surroundings, both of which are not really objective? I'll offer that this entirely depends on the person, whether they're the type to value the internal or the external, but this is also subjective to themselves.

    I do think that there is a kind of objective goal, a general will to survive and function, as an individual and as a culture. But this is just somewhat statistically universal, not actually.
    I'm an Fe dom... not something I can exactly hide, even when I try .

    I think we're mostly in agreement. Yet, honestly... I am have a really really really really reeeeeeealy hard time seeing someone to have value just because they "feel it" in themselves. It's extremely alien to me to preform such things without an external reference. I am almost completely unable to do it. I mean, I understand it and I know that people do that but. It feels just so deeply fundementally wrong to me. I totally know it's not, believe me. I just, it's something I am nearly completely unable to empathize with. Just kinda sorta know in theory. I could never derive my value internally. If I lose my external value I'd probably lose my will to live.

    I just see value as something that is externally derived. Partially because I feel like everything can be exteralized and reasoned in some manner.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
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