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  1. #11
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anastasiaromanova View Post
    Oh, okay, got it. Good to know. Thanks.

    Btw Mishima really saw his whole life as art, including and maybe especially the politics, dramatic end and all...the man was on fire...
    I'll have to learn more about him, all I know I learned in a quick scrounge up. Truthfully, as a 4, I (vainly, admittedly) don't really look to role models, for fear of being overly influenced or imitative. Although, I am definitely inspired by people, but I don't go looking for people to be.

    And to the OP as prompted by above, the essence of art lives beyond things that are on paper and on the stage. You can live artfully. Don't limit yourself.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anastasiaromanova View Post
    Huh? The Stranger is one of the most important novels of the 20th Century. But even if he hadn't been a novelist, to limit the idea of creative genius to the arts is...well...limiting.
    I thought OP wanted examples of 4s who lived out something great through those storms that didn't have to do with creative genius. In other words, I thought she wanted examples that were not in the arts.

  3. #13
    Member anastasiaromanova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I'll have to learn more about him, all I know I learned in a quick scrounge up. Truthfully, as a 4, I (vainly, admittedly) don't really look to role models, for fear of being overly influenced or imitative. Although, I am definitely inspired by people, but I don't go looking for people to be.

    And to the OP as prompted by above, the essence of art lives beyond things that are on paper and on the stage. You can live artfully. Don't limit yourself.
    Look into Mishima. The man was just amazingly prolific, could not stop. Like something inhuman. sx/soc 'comet' seriously burning himself to oblivion.

    And to the second paragraph, absolutely, YES.

  4. #14
    Member anastasiaromanova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    I thought OP wanted examples of 4s who lived out something great through those storms that didn't have to do with creative genius. In other words, I thought she wanted examples that were not in the arts.
    Right, but why is 'creative genius' only in the arts?

    See, if the 4 or strongly 4-fixed can see creative genius, or at least CREATIVITY, in all fields, that can be a beginning of freedom from the fixation.

    Both for those in the arts and those who aren't.
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  5. #15
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    I felt much the same way when I encountered the enneagram. I really needed it because I was all the worst things about the type at the time, but that meant I felt the slap, too - hard. The way I'd come to see the better side of the 4 was just spending time here and observing the others. There are some mature, some older 4s around to learn about the different variants and potentials of the type from. So, that's my suggestion to you - stay and read the discussions about what interests you. Welcome.
    4w3 6w5 1w2 sx/sp ISFP

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    Kiss Kiss [johari] Bang Bang [nohari]

  6. #16
    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anastasiaromanova View Post
    Right, but why is 'creative genius' only in the arts?

    See, if the 4 or strongly 4-fixed can see creative genius, or at least CREATIVITY, in all fields, that can be a beginning of freedom from the fixation.

    Both for those in the arts and those who aren't.
    Got you now.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    I think the thing is, 'art' just by itself in my current understanding doesn't really mean anything in particular.

    Is the goal of art to inspire, to radicalize, to interpret, to commentary, to represent something important about a particular era, just for self-expression, etc? Because I think the storms that 4s go through, when anyone is kind of pushed to a point where they have to deeply examine or define things, #3 and #4 are accomplished just as a consequence and then in that sense, just your living can be art. If it's about #6 then anything you derive meaning from or that affirms your sense of truly living, can be art. On that track I agree with the posts saying the essence is off the paper & stage.

    But is there something about the 4 fixation that makes art itself - as limited to the actual arts, I mean, and without any special personal significance derived from it - entrancing (besides the "beauty")?

  8. #18
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    I've come to suspect that the practical purpose of 4s is to exist in opposition to practicality.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

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  9. #19
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    I think you're looking at it from the wrong angle. There really isn't a "point" to being an enneagram. It describes a personality, which simply just is. Looking at it from what it's good for or not is not the right approach and will ultimately just be disenheartining.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I've come to suspect that the practical purpose of 4s is to exist in opposition to practicality.
    Which is a reason why they can get on my nerves so much, because I strive for practicality and efficiency. Granted, it only gets on my nerves when it's slighted simply because it's practical.

    This is actually a good point though. A lot of the time, people look at the point and utility of something for how they are practically useful. If that's how you view it, then of course 4's are going to look "useless", which is completely wrong. Everyone has the potential to be useful. The variance and apperence of it comes from if it's tangibly, or intangibly useful. 4's are largely intangible in this respect, which is why they can be cast very unfairly as pointless/useless/annoying.
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  10. #20
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I've come to suspect that the practical purpose of 4s is to exist in opposition to practicality.
    Of course, to remind people that life is more than utility and survival, but that there can and should be deeper meaning and higher purpose and passion and emotion and perhaps even spirituality.

    This is where the idea comes in that the healthy, high-functioning 4 is some kind of creative genius, because the 4 is inclined to do things which add greater significance to life, and that often involves creativity and beauty. But I think that is also misguided, given the fixation of the 4 and what it takes to grow beyond it. Other types are mostly given very realistic "goals" for their healthiest level, but the 4 is given something which is so extraordinary, and which will naturally appeal to them (and perhaps is set so as to aid self-identification), but sets them up to stay stuck in the cycle that prevents growth.

    The idea, instead, is that the 4 begins to contribute something of significance to life, to the shared reality, as opposed to creating things which boost their own personal significance. The 4 is right that something is missing, but it's not within themselves. Of course, in doing this, their own personal significance is bound to be boosted and they are likey to fulfill many things which were previously frustrated.

    I DO think altruism and more selfless, noble aims will help a 4 develp and flex equanamity (and I feel it's helped me), because it takes focus off of oneself and puts emotions into a larger context. We handle suffering very well, really. We don't just endure it, but we create it and confront it head on. This equips us with the stomach to emotionally handle the tragedies of others, whereas other people might get overwhelmed or burdened or simply uncomfortable. As a 4, you have the skills, because you climbed that mountain already and know it inside out, sometimes only through tragic fantasy, but it's not foreign territory to you. So it's something you can contribute and at the same time find some balance for your inner world of emotion with real life interactions that are not about your own personal longings.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe
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