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  1. #21
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    I can't help but notice how you keep equating 4's with artistic aspirations, why? I dont think it follows that all fours dream of being artists or that it's even the 'arty' enneagram. Fours have a drive for individuation over other priorities but it doesn't necessarily follow that sameness or commonality is a core fear. And why wouldn't a group of individuals sharing commonalities express it in similar ways? Isn't that the premise that Enneagram is actually founded on? We can define the diversity of humanity into 9 core groups based on their shared aspects.

    The fours basic fear of personal significance does not mean that they seek to obliterate any small commonality with other people. It's a drive to find their holy grail, the one thing (or collection of things) that defines them, and makes them who they are. It's seeking a personal understanding of this thing known as 'me' and trying to sift and sort the 'me' from the collective. That doesn't always have to mean an uncommon style of expression. But when fours act out it often takes the form of some outward aggravation as a way of pushing against that which is considered 'other' in order to find the authentic. Like a kitten trying to fight its way out of a bag. It swipes at the societal boundaries seeking an exit point.

    I have an internal drive for gnosis and a fear that gnosis will actually lead to the realisation that 'I' does not exist. If I share commonalities with others or not along the way, who really cares. It's not me being in a little bubble all on my own that matters. It's the search for that which is authentic versus that which is belonging to the collective conscious and masquerading as authentic that I care about.

  2. #22
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    The stereotypical avatars of the forum's 4s (black and white pictures expressing sadness, or a quandary) are a good example of what I mean, and they are becoming tiresome to view every day. I do not sense much originality; all I see is conformity created by the fear of appearing unlike a 4, and this fear itself is antithetical to being a 4 (or an sx, or a Fi user for that matter).


    Quote Originally Posted by Ingrid in grids View Post
    Fearful and conformist INFJ with black and white avatar expressing sadness/quandary checking in.




    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I feel confident that you're accurately typed...but will admit to being confused by your 'atypical' avatar choices. Which makes sense when you compare your avatar(s) with some of the more common themes/expressions we've become accustomed to seeing.



    INFx 4 Avatar: Example 1


    INFx 4 Avatar: Example 2


    INFx 4 Avatar: Example 3
    I see those as white and gold.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    stand·ard de·vi·a·tion

    noun

    A quantity calculated to indicate the extent of deviation for a group as a whole.



    I think it's important to keep in mind that there will never come a time when TypologyCentral will be reflective of the population at large. For example, while we've evolved in many ways...this site can still trace its roots back to INTPCentral. And if there's one thing we know about INTPs it's that they are predominantly 5w4. I don't think it's a stretch to speculate that this site...this format, style of interaction...the focus, the specific content we discuss...may in fact be more attractive to 5w4s/4w5s than other types.

    We are high on sx doms and low on ESxx as well which I am more likely to attribute to the content and format respectively long before I would consider mistypes.
    Well the majority of INFPs are 9s, and then 6s. This should not be news. However more attractive the material here may be to E4s, there are still so many more 6s and 9s that it is inconceivable that the forum could have as many 4s as it does. Your argument makes sense from the perspective of MBTI; but the MBTI types are themselves differentiated.

    I have a hunch that we are high on sx firsts for the same reason that we are high on 4s; sx is the most attractive of the instincts. The forum membership is not above such superficiality, I know that as I trip people up every week and they react in a very defensive way.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chthonic View Post
    I can't help but notice how you keep equating 4's with artistic aspirations, why? I dont think it follows that all fours dream of being artists or that it's even the 'arty' enneagram. Fours have a drive for individuation over other priorities but it doesn't necessarily follow that sameness or commonality is a core fear. And why wouldn't a group of individuals sharing commonalities express it in similar ways? Isn't that the premise that Enneagram is actually founded on? We can define the diversity of humanity into 9 core groups based on their shared aspects.

    The fours basic fear of personal significance does not mean that they seek to obliterate any small commonality with other people. It's a drive to find their holy grail, the one thing (or collection of things) that defines them, and makes them who they are. It's seeking a personal understanding of this thing known as 'me' and trying to sift and sort the 'me' from the collective. That doesn't always have to mean an uncommon style of expression. But when fours act out it often takes the form of some outward aggravation as a way of pushing against that which is considered 'other' in order to find the authentic. Like a kitten trying to fight its way out of a bag. It swipes at the societal boundaries seeking an exit point.

    I have an internal drive for gnosis and a fear that gnosis will actually lead to the realisation that 'I' does not exist. If I share commonalities with others or not along the way, who really cares. It's not me being in a little bubble all on my own that matters. It's the search for that which is authentic versus that which is belonging to the collective conscious and masquerading as authentic that I care about.
    This is a post from PerC on the topic which gets to the essence of the problem better than I can (bolded is mine):

    Most people who think they are fours seem to be sensitive people who don't fit in and live very withdrawn lives. It's also common that people equate their wallowing in their emotions for being 4s.

    Mistyped 4s usually come about from them making a very basic incorrect judgement of what the other types stand for, that they don't believe fits them:

    1 - Too dutiful.
    2 - Too focused on others.
    3 - Too shallow.
    5 - Too emotionally detached.
    6 - Too much about trusting authority.
    7 - Too happy/not introspective enough.
    8 - Too confident.
    9 - Too relaxed/accepting.

    The most common mistypes are 6 and 9. Sixes are portrayed terribly in most descriptions, they're described as people who have to rely on someone else to tell them what to think otherwise they can't function and are basically portrayed as people who need predictable boring lives and aren't curious, they're just anxious crazy-people who have to fit into a group otherwise they'll always feel worthless.
    In essence they oppose the nature of individuality.

    Here's a description from this site about Four/Six mistyping:

    Fours and Sixes
    Fours and sixes can seem similar because both are emotional, self-doubting and insecure. There are some fundamental differences. Fours tend to doubt themselves, but look outside themselves for ideal love, whereas sixes doubt themselves and while they look outside themselves for authority, they also tend to mistrust the good intentions of their chosen authority. Also, fours’ sense of identity revolves around their being different, sensitive and troubled whereas for sixes, their identities revolve more around being loyal and reliable, as well as the standards of their community. Although social fours can be drawn to counter-culture groups, they tend to feel their difference from that group acutely, often experiencing a conflict between their desire to belong and their desire to maintain their individuality. Sixes have an easier time forming bonds within the group, ingratiating themselves more quickly. Both fours and sixes may feel like outcasts, but for fours this is both a source of anguish and a source of pride, whereas it's less tolerable for sixes. Also, while sixes may identify with the underdog, they also can become persecutory themselves by what they perceive as a threat. Fours are unlikely to persecute outsiders to help their social standing. Both can be idealistic, but sixes are more likely to see things in terms of "us versus them" whereas fours tend to find that such partisan stances compromise their individuality too much. Finally, sixes tend to feel anxious in their own mind, whereas fours tend to retreat into fantasy and imagination.

    This seems to inflate the desire to be a four over a six in my opinion. Fours are described as troubled idealists, whereas sixes are described as sycophants who'll screw people over to improve their social standing. The persecution makes them sound even crueler, they're not given much integrity here which doesn't make it hard to see why some people would choose being a four over a six. Not to mention that this gives the mistaken idea that sixes have an easy time forming bonds, which is unlikely to resonate with people who feel uncomfortable and out of place in social situations.

    As for nines mistyping as fours, nines are often portrayed as peacemakers who are generally happier and refuse to dwell on negative emotions. So they might think they're a four just because they're depressed. They're not exploring their emotions for the same reasons that a four would, but they perceive it that way, because fours are generally described as having a need to experience emotion and not being able to compartmentalize it, which seems more fitting to a type nine who's become depressed enough that they can't block out negativity.

  5. #25
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    Interesting but I don't see what it has to do with my post quite honestly or this thread. So you believe you mistyped as a four when you are a 6 and therefore all 4 typings are to be mistrusted? The fact that you've changed your belief your type means you are somehow more authentically typed than someone who hasn't?

  6. #26
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    Wise old Edgar once told me that if someone has a black and white avatar that person is probably an INFP (can't remember whether it was INFX) or gay.

    Ps - I didn't have this current avatar back then. Too bored to Photoshop it.
    I used to punch up the color of all of my avatars, or even colorize them if they were black and white, but this one just couldn't be touched.

    I wonder if the OP grasps irony.
    If your stereotype is to do what is not expected so as to be "unusual", but you purposely do what is expected because it's not expected, then are you conforming to or flouting the stereotype?

    PS. 4s don't typically have issues over conforming or being different nearly as much as 6s probably do. You would be right about that OP, if you made that point. Aaaand, there are typical 4s, hence it being a type.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #27
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    My thoughts as well, Jennifer. And @riva, my favorite clothed fox, who is Edgar? Did he exist here before my time?
    You're not familiar with @Edgar? Have you been living under a rock?
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

    "I took one those personality tests. It came back negative." - Dan Mintz

  8. #28
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Well the majority of INFPs are 9s, and then 6s. This should not be news.
    I was vaguely with you until this. Nowhere have I read this and nowhere have I found this to be true. INFPs are most likely to be (in descending order): 4s, 9s, 5s, 6s. To say 4 is not the most likely type for INFP is pretty much bonkers.

    I don't disagree with you that people tend to mistype 4, but I think it's less of a problem here than it is at say, PerC. There isn't the same sort of level of disillusional thinking when it comes to self-typing here. People are also less performative when it comes to trying to convince others of their type (especially with the 4s and/or INFPs). The exception being the newbies, but we usually break them in or they end up leaving.

    You do realise that arguing this is basically a no-win argument for actual 4s, though. If you doubt that I am a four, then there is nothing I could do to convince you I am one because it would seem like I was merely demonstrating 4 stereotypes to prove it. Confirmation bias works both ways in this regard.

    I have a hunch that we are high on sx firsts for the same reason that we are high on 4s; sx is the most attractive of the instincts. The forum membership is not above such superficiality, I know that as I trip people up every week and they react in a very defensive way.
    I definitely agree with this.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Well the majority of INFPs are 9s, and then 6s.
    Naw, majority are 4's actually. Then 9, then probably 5 & 6 being tied'ish. Sources are conflicted, of course, but that's my take after consolidating data and correlating that with empirical evidence. At any rate, it's easy to misidentify as 4 because we all see ourselves as unique individuals to a certain degree, but here on the forum, they're a type I'd expect to see a lot of, as they search for the expression of that uniqueness through such venues and ironically, through finding other 4's.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #30
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    You're not familiar with @Edgar? Have you been living under a rock?
    Apparently, but riva has enlightened me.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

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