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  1. #1
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Default E1 "Self-Erasure"

    Found this description today and it resonated a lot with me:

    Quote Originally Posted by enneagramcentral.com
    SELF-ERASURE LEADS TO OVERIDENTIFICATION WITH A TRADITION

    Social Ones speak for the moral tradition. Their identification with the social tradition is their psychological compensation for their loss of self-awareness, what many writers and teachers call letting the self go to sleep, so they don't see any difference between what they think and what the tradition teaches. There is no "self" opinion, there is only the correct teaching of the tradition. This has a tendency to lead to self-righteousness because it is not the individual who is right, it is the tradition that is right.
    I'd mentioned other times on the forum that, while E1 rule-evangelism can come across as arrogant, that it really isn't, and has nothing to do with us as individuals. No one ever seemed convinced, so this description was validating.

    Questions for other 1s (just to begin discussion):

    1) Do you relate?
    2) If not, how would you describe the experience of rule-evangelism (or whatever else you'd call it)?
    3) Is this 1 in general, instead of just social 1? (because that was my instinct (ha ha) upon reading it)

    Things I'm also wondering:

    1) how this self-erasure relates to that of, let's say, type 9
    2) how and why type 1, apparently a self-erasure type, disintegrates to 4, which has an opposite relationship with the self (building an ideal one)
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  2. #2
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Really interesting. Only tangentially related, but I think Social 6 can operate in a very similar way. Perhaps this is part of the 6-1 "Prussian" link. There is an objective focus on the subject matter (tradition) and a lack of focus on subjective interpretation. For 6 I believe this occurs because of the lack of confidence that we can decide or interpret for ourselves, so we fill that hole with objective subject matter. That is how the 6 self-erases. How does the 1 self-erase... What drives a 1 to self-erase?

    I will talk to my 9w1 about this and get back to you if he has any feedback from the 9 POV.

  3. #3
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    @skylights what did your 9w1 think?


    --------------


    Also summoning some other 1s in here: @Hard @fidelia @SD45T-2
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  4. #4
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Some other thoughts about this, now that I'm returning to the subject:

    - Average and unhealthy E1s tend to blame others before blaming themselves, and tend to not be very self-aware (in the sense that they don't dwell a lot on why they do what they do -- except "because it's the right thing to do" and "because I don't want to do the wrong thing")
    - When E1s do introspect a lot, it's because they're disintegrating to 4, so it's the really bad kind of introspection -- the kind that would make you not want to introspect again
    - When E1 integrates to E7, that leads to even more avoidance of painful things, and with the E4 disintegration thing, introspection would be one of those painful things(?)

    So maybe E1 self-erasure comes from the idea that the self, as it exists separately from ideal-following, is inherently evil, and the only way to escape that evil is by superimposing this other self onto your human self, to make it above human criticism? Thereby making the E1 just a tiny speck of good in an evil world -- but also no longer a "person" as we understand it. Or at least a person in denial.

    The more I try to analyze it, the more depressing it is.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  5. #5
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post

    So maybe E1 self-erasure comes from the idea that the self, as it exists separately from ideal-following, is inherently evil, and the only way to escape that evil is by superimposing this other self onto your human self, to make it above human criticism? Thereby making the E1 just a tiny speck of good in an evil world -- but also no longer a "person" as we understand it. Or at least a person in denial.
    (As you already know) I'm not e1, and it actually falls pretty low on my enneagram totem pole, but I thought I'd throw this out there- I'm pretty sure recently I read the Fauvres expressing the opinion that there isn't really a 'disintegration' point and an 'integration' point so much as there are two other points towards which a particular type both disintegrates and integrates? IOW: as an e5, 'growth' means supposedly integrating the positive aspects of both 7 and 8 and the negative aspects of both 7 and 8 will show up for disintegration. (There's a thread on this somewhere, started rather recently by highlander- and I tried looking for it but hot damn does highlander start a lot of threads...I opened up a bunch of tabs for threads I'd missed, which he'd started, while searching for the one I'm talking about...)

    Anyway, my point here is that maybe think about the positive qualities of e4 as part of e1 integration?
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  6. #6
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    (As you already know) I'm not e1, and it actually falls pretty low on my enneagram totem pole, but I thought I'd throw this out there- I'm pretty sure recently I read the Fauvres expressing the opinion that there isn't really a 'disintegration' point and an 'integration' point so much as there are two other points towards which a particular type both disintegrates and integrates? IOW: as an e5, 'growth' means supposedly integrating the positive aspects of both 7 and 8 and the negative aspects of both 7 and 8 will show up for disintegration. (There's a thread on this somewhere, started rather recently by highlander- and I tried looking for it but hot damn does highlander start a lot of threads...I opened up a bunch of tabs for threads I'd missed, which he'd started, while searching for the one I'm talking about...)

    Anyway, my point here is that maybe think about the positive qualities of e4 as part of e1 integration?
    Which would mean:

    - All the introspection and internal analysis that I do now, that I didn't used to do, are not a total MBTI/Enneagram fluke like I thought they were, but are instead integration to 4
    - E1 integration includes an acceptance of one's uniqueness, and the validity of their individual needs, since that's part of what it means to be a healthy 4 (?)

    Very interesting!
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  7. #7
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    You know, I don't even really have a thorough grasp of e4. I bet @OrangeAppled would be able to read the op and tell you how the positive aspects of e4 integration might apply here. (And probably some other people, but she's the first one that comes to mind for me.)

    eta:
    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    - E1 integration includes an acceptance of one's uniqueness, and the validity of their individual needs, since that's part of what it means to be a healthy 4 (?)
    I'm guessing this would be part of it, though.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  8. #8
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    I don't really relate to the way it explains things. While I do sort of "turn off" when under high stress and go on autopilot, I don't really lose my sense of self per-say. I was very introspective when I was younger (to the point of it being a problem) but that's largely due to Ni, and I did it because I felt I should. Which, in an ironic turn, is this exact E1 issue: I'll get fixated on doing things that I should do. Not necessarily because it's a tradition, but simply because it's what I've or others have determined to be the right thing, or expected thing. I had assumed this identity where I had to be introspective all the time, or I wasn't sticking true to who I should have been, so I forced myself. I didn't even realize that is what I was doing either! I was convinced it was who I was (which is a problem of Fe, it has issues with knowing it's "true self" because it's self is so much based on the external world).

    When I get on an issue (rules or not) Ican be like a dog on a bone and I will. not. drop. it. Not until some ground is given or something is done with/about it. Though, I never really lose sight of why it's an issue, at least I don't think I do. I have had moments where I would not bend on a rule before because everyone else around me wanted to bend it or reinterpret it. I actually am fine with bending rules if the ends justify the means. In these cases though, they did not so I refused to allow it. Others were telling me that I was being myopic about it and not seeing the point (self-erasure?), but I refused to budge because I was interpreting things as literal and exact as they were.

    I'm an sp-1 so ultimately I don't fully relate to it, but I do relate to it on some levels if it's reworded from a slightly different prospective.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
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  9. #9
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    @Hard thanks for replying. Interesting to read the non-social-first 1 perspective -- and that some of it definitely has to do with being social first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I was very introspective when I was younger (to the point of it being a problem) but that's largely due to Ni, and I did it because I felt I should. Which, in an ironic turn, is this exact E1 issue: I'll get fixated on doing things that I should do. Not necessarily because it's a tradition, but simply because it's what I've or others have determined to be the right thing, or expected thing. I had assumed this identity where I had to be introspective all the time, or I wasn't sticking true to who I should have been, so I forced myself. I didn't even realize that is what I was doing either! I was convinced it was who I was (which is a problem of Fe, it has issues with knowing it's "true self" because it's self is so much based on the external world)
    This seems similar to what I was describing -- putting on a "good" self and denying your real one, because your real one is too imperfect to exist.

    In comparison/contrast: I'm pretty Fe-deficient, but still have behaviors that I've picked up because they were the "right" thing, even though they don't come naturally to me. For example, constantly seeking out compromise and interpersonal harmony. Detaching in the presence of domineering people, to let them take the lead and avoid conflict. It's taken me years to figure out that I'm not really afraid of conflict, as much as I'm afraid of disapproval, because letting conflict happen is bad and will lead to disapproval. So I've been trying to find a balance, where I can drop some of those learned behaviors/tendencies and just act naturally.

    At the same time: the reaction, when I told someone a while back about what I see as a contrast between these learned behaviors and "the real me", was that they're both me and I need to find middle ground. So it's very possible that I'm out of touch with myself to the point that I can't tell the real me from the impossible ideal that I WANT to be me. (For example: what if I really AM afraid of conflict, but am manufacturing this narrative of not being afraid of conflict because I don't want to be the sort of person who's afraid of conflict?)
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  10. #10
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Despite my lack of insight into the matter (particularly in typological terms), I find this a very interesting topic. I will be following it, even if I don't post much later on.

    From a 6ish point of view (or just a personal one, not sure), I relate. I don't necessarily meld with traditions, but I undervalue my subjective judgement, and look outside myself for an authority to tell me what I should believe and value. For example, I am a sucker for those guides that tell you what you SHOULD read, to be properly well-read (I also never see a film without reading certain critics reviews). And I end up hating myself, when I don't like the "right" books. Also, I have a propensity for discipleship if I find someone who is very wise, I will sometimes twist my own subjective experiences to fit the judgements and ideas of these sometimes dubious authorities. I am very picky about who I trust, but once I trust them, I have a tendency to be a bit slavish about it.

    So when I'm correcting someone (let's say they're reading the wrong books), I don't think I'm better than them, I just think they're contradicting the laws of the authority I have put my trust in (which is practically as fundamental as the laws of physics). Nonetheless, people take it as snobbery, when from my point of view, it's almost like stating a fact of life. I am working on this.

    Connecting the e1's self-erasure to my own, helps me understand the e1's in my life now a bit better. I definitely thought of their "tradition-thumping" as stubbornness and arrogance. Say what you want about the flaws of personality theory, but this stuff gets me thinking about how others see the world.

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