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  1. #11
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    @Hard thanks for replying. Interesting to read the non-social-first 1 perspective -- and that some of it definitely has to do with being social first.


    This seems similar to what I was describing -- putting on a "good" self and denying your real one, because your real one is too imperfect to exist.

    In comparison/contrast: I'm pretty Fe-deficient, but still have behaviors that I've picked up because they were the "right" thing, even though they don't come naturally to me. For example, constantly seeking out compromise and interpersonal harmony. Detaching in the presence of domineering people, to let them take the lead and avoid conflict. It's taken me years to figure out that I'm not really afraid of conflict, as much as I'm afraid of disapproval, because letting conflict happen is bad and will lead to disapproval. So I've been trying to find a balance, where I can drop some of those learned behaviors/tendencies and just act naturally.

    At the same time: the reaction, when I told someone a while back about what I see as a contrast between these learned behaviors and "the real me", was that they're both me and I need to find middle ground. So it's very possible that I'm out of touch with myself to the point that I can't tell the real me from the impossible ideal that I WANT to be me. (For example: what if I really AM afraid of conflict, but am manufacturing this narrative of not being afraid of conflict because I don't want to be the sort of person who's afraid of conflict?)
    When I put on my good self, it's not so much that I think my real self is to perfect to exist, it's that I just have an image I want to have seen. I guess that is the same thing though just worded in a slightly different manner. I also totally relate to the conflict bit (I think we've talked about this before), I am not afraid of it, I just don't want to make a mistake by doing it because if you're wrong you look pretty bad. For years though I saw myself as super conflict adverse, but with time I realized I was not, for the reasons you've mentioned. When push comes to shove, I am one the better people out there to stand ground for myself or others. I just need the authority/reason to do so. I'm now rules head for HvZ and the primary reason I got the position is because if needed I have to call players who are breaking rules on their BS, and very few mods want or are able to do that.

    Honestly? I have given up trying to "find myself" and figure out the "real me". It's such a waste of time. My dad has told me for years and years that I put WAY too much effort into it. Turns out he was right to a degree. Ultimately, I am just going to do what I do. When there is reason to self-analyze and find out what I really am, then go for it, but outside of it, who cares? It won't change much.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  2. #12
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I've been kind of mulling this thing over all day. I think I'm fairly aware of the distinction between what I want and what I feel is the right thing to do. However, I'm not sure it erases my sense of self so much as tempers it. Sometimes I'd rather stay home and do nothing. On the other hand, having experienced what it's like to have no one to volunteer or call on myself, I'll often go anyhow. It's not that I'm denying that I have needs for rest, solitude, time to do my own work, Eric, but that one principle trumps another in that instance.

    As far as rule evangelism, I'm not sure exactly what is meant, but I assume it means that I feel there are objective right or wrong ways to act that we all should follow? I think for me, it depends on the issue. Nothing bothers me as much as people being uncommunicative or sulky, not to communicate displeasure, but just because they are generally tired, moody, irritable, etc. To me, it seems like imposing your moods on everyone around you, even if you swear you don't expect anyone to do something to amend whatever is wrong. In those instances, I guess I get kind of vocal about it. I think there are a few issues like that I am kind of rigid about and even if I can understand another perspective from a logical perspective, I have a harder time validating it from a social or emotional perspective. Don't know if that is any help or not...

  3. #13
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I've been kind of mulling this thing over all day. I think I'm fairly aware of the distinction between what I want and what I feel is the right thing to do. However, I'm not sure it erases my sense of self so much as tempers it. Sometimes I'd rather stay home and do nothing. On the other hand, having experienced what it's like to have no one to volunteer or call on myself, I'll often go anyhow. It's not that I'm denying that I have needs for rest, solitude, time to do my own work, Eric, but that one principle trumps another in that instance.
    Was there ever a time in your life when you had less of a boundary between what you want to do and what you "should" do? Does guilt ever rear its ugly head?

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    As far as rule evangelism, I'm not sure exactly what is meant, but I assume it means that I feel there are objective right or wrong ways to act that we all should follow? I think for me, it depends on the issue. Nothing bothers me as much as people being uncommunicative or sulky, not to communicate displeasure, but just because they are generally tired, moody, irritable, etc. To me, it seems like imposing your moods on everyone around you, even if you swear you don't expect anyone to do something to amend whatever is wrong. In those instances, I guess I get kind of vocal about it. I think there are a few issues like that I am kind of rigid about and even if I can understand another perspective from a logical perspective, I have a harder time validating it from a social or emotional perspective. Don't know if that is any help or not...
    I guess that makes sense. My mom is a social-first INFJ 1 and she doesn't usually evangelize the rules -- though rule-breaking REALLY pisses her off, so she usually finds a way to step in behind the scenes and make things right. There are right ways and wrong ways to do 99% of things, in her mind. Then again she's not as chill as you. Strikes me as more rigid, and like she gets a lot of satisfaction from holding onto anger and being a martyr for her cause. (Not something I relate to, btw.)
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  4. #14
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think I generally do try to do some behind the scenes rule encouraging/enforcing, but I know that I can also over-assume that people are intentionally breaking what seem like obvious rules to me (eg when there are only two of you there, the other person is required to respond in some way, as long as the person talking is being somewhat sensitive to the other person's mood and interests). When that happens, I either get resentful, until some incident makes me talk about it, or else if the person is younger, I may explain how their response is being interpreted by me. I think as I've gotten older, I'm improving at communicating more directly and saying something sooner, although I don't have it mastered.

    Certainly I feel guilt. I think that Fe and being a social first also can muddy the waters for me of what is a reasonable expectation/want for me to have, and what is me being affected by other people's wishes or expectations or what I believe I should do/feel. Sometimes I need some reliable people (or some time) to sort out which it is. Sometimes there is not always a clear principle to follow that would guide the course of action. This summer, it has been incredibly validating to have my ENFJ friend who has been part of our family for years see the quirks that come out when my mum is under emotional stress and confirm that it is indeed her and not me, because my ENFJ mum is very convincing and is often right on the money for how she sees things, as well as being pretty duty-oriented, selfless and thoughtful.

    However, under stress, she rarely will back down even when she is wrong, and particularly under times of stress can be sort of dismissive or contrary. For example, I clearly told her before I left on my trips that I would be doing a music camp for three days on the last week of August. We talked about it more than once, and I explained that the main family I was doing it for would be busy the third week. She went ahead and told my brother that I was busy the third week and free the fourth week so he should book his visit for then, and then even as she explained it to him and to someone else this week, told them that I had been "ambivalent" about the camp (not true - I made loose arrangements with the family, if others can come fine, but this family was going to be too busy till today to even know what days of the week would work best, so we said we'd talk about it the next day!), and also that I had thought I had told her one thing but hadn't. My friend overheard and started laughing and said, "No, you just told her a different answer than she had decided in her head. She'd make a great salesperson - get them to the yes!". Part of it is that what looks like her to ambivalence (lack of immediate action), is that I have reasons for how I'm doing things, and also that I have it planned in a workable way and have made necessary arrangements, or else the issue is very low stakes and doesn't matter.

    Anyway, I think as I've gotten older, I've become more aware that just because someone makes a pronouncement, it doesn't necessarily mean it's true, even though I have a hard time not being affected emotionally, particularly by people whose regard I value.

    Right now, I am totally burned out and tired and another busy year is looming before me, without there having been any real break. While I enjoyed both of the trips I had this summer, I was very much in the position of planning, teaching, and parenting, rather than just being a peer enjoying our time together. I recognize that I need some time alone to recharge and to plan, yet there are still a lot of pressing needs of my brother's kids that can't be addressed at any other time. To me, that trumps my need for recharging, but I have decided to take off the first two weeks of September so that I do get some time to feel that I can hit the ground running, rather than feeling behind, even though it means less money at a time when my resources have been a bit depleted.

    Sometimes I find that I'm not really aware of why I'm reacting with certain emotions until I have some time to really think about it on my own and sort out the root causes. I don't think I tend to bury a lot of stuff, but feeling unpleasant towards people is a stage I usually wish to move through fairly quickly. It's not usually an unawareness of something being awry, but usually an underestimation of how much it is impacting me. Usually when I find out, it is when I am either flooded with a rush of emotion unreasonable to the severity of a particular incident/situation or else when I cry/get upset in someone else's presence when I hadn't even realized I was that upset, which I find terribly embarrassing (and it doesn't happen all that often, but I hate it when it does).

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