[Type 5] The Love and Care of an E5

[violet_crown]

I am hoping to start a general discussion on love and E5s. Much to my delight, I've recently gotten involved with an INTJ 5w4. I had always found 5s to be attractive, but was of the general impression that I was a little too crude for them.

Whatever the case may have been, I seemed to have hit it off with this guy, but am admittedly ignorant as to much of anything about 5s. What moves them? What are--generally speaking--deal breakers? What tends to make them feel cared for and respected?

Naturally, a lot of this will have to be worked out with him as we get to know each other, but I'd love to hear from men and women who identify as 5s just to get some general feedback. What tend to be your insecurities when it comes to relationships? What do you feel are your strengths as partners?

There's been a lot about the INTJ that has been unexpectedly delightful--the blend of geeky introversion interwoven with definite opinion, swagger and vulnerability, and all that jazz--and he seems to be into me as well. Not sure how it will all end up, but I'm open to pointers on how not to fuck it up.

Thoughts?

 

[grey_beard]

I am hoping to start a general discussion on love and E5s. Much to my delight, I've recently gotten involved with an INTJ 5w4. I had always found 5s to be attractive, but was of the general impression that I was a little too crude for them.

Whatever the case may have been, I seemed to have hit it off with this guy, but am admittedly ignorant as to much of anything about 5s. What moves them? What are--generally speaking--deal breakers? What tends to make them feel cared for and respected?

Naturally, a lot of this will have to be worked out with him as we get to know each other, but I'd love to hear from men and women who identify as 5s just to get some general feedback. What tend to be your insecurities when it comes to relationships? What do you feel are your strengths as partners?

There's been a lot about the INTJ that has been unexpectedly delightful--the blend of geeky introversion interwoven with definite opinion, swagger and vulnerability, and all that jazz--and he seems to be into me as well. Not sure how it will all end up, but I'm open to pointers on how not to fuck it up.

Thoughts?

[MENTION=7254]Wind Up Rex[/MENTION] --

I'm an INTJ 5w4 male.

The way to my heart is through my brain.
Don't challenge: that is, not with the intent to *win*.

But don't *let* him win intellectually either: it must be a tussle, a romp, with sparks flying off the anvil, peals of laughter, puns, jest, "tag you're it" with a twinkle in your eye at him, before darting away, making him *work* to catch you...

Strength as a partner is unerring loyalty: but if you're under the INTJ armor, don't damage anything in the Fi, internal marshmallow fluff.

INTJs have *NO* internal-facing defenses.

And if they see or realize, you've aimed at damaging them, and succeed: you'll be lucky if you escape with a doorslam, almost certainly irrevocable, rather than a nuclear strike.

Playful, sincere admiration, once you have his notice -- followed by (girlish giggle on your part) surrender.

Until it's time for the next round...

Oh, one other thing. 5w4 INTJ alpha males are capable of almost unspeakable bursts of intensity (in the terawatt range) [EDITED: petawatt to exawatt, in homage to 0.5 megaton/sec firepower for extended periods benchmark] for short periods, but then they need to recharge. ALONE. Only exceptions being throw his favorite sandwich into the door of the computer room, and leave, or ... [censored]. And either way NO emotional demands should be made on him during the recharge.

Insecurities center around loyalty and faithfulness *towards* us. We don't cheat and so are devastated if we find we have been cheated *on*.

Some insecurities may center around in-person social activities, or punctuality / time management; we aren't xNFP-flighty enough when schedules slip.

Good activities include whatever his interests are (an INTJ in "happily-aerosol-spray-can-of-knowledge" mode is a wonder to behold!); introducing him to new books, music, art, or restaurants; non-competitive sports or hobbies (hiking, bicycling, that kind of thing); and in some cases, video games.

INTJs are often sticklers for punctuality and order; but some can be almost as slovenly as an INFP, due to the utterly single-minded focus on the latest interest, and forgetting to cook, eat, or pretty much anything else while the intense data download is going on.

Best wishes.

 

[Animal]

[MENTION=7254]Wind Up Rex[/MENTION] --

I'm an INTJ 5w4 male.

The way to my heart is through my brain.
Don't challenge: that is, not with the intent to *win*.

But don't *let* him win intellectually either: it must be a tussle, a romp, with sparks flying off the anvil, peals of laughter, puns, jest, "tag you're it" with a twinkle in your eye at him, before darting away, making him *work* to catch you...

Strength as a partner is unerring loyalty: but if you're under the INTJ armor, don't damage anything in the Fi, internal marshmallow fluff.

INTJs have *NO* internal-facing defenses.

And if they see or realize, you've aimed at damaging them, and succeed: you'll be lucky if you escape with a doorslam, almost certainly irrevocable, rather than a nuclear strike.

Playful, sincere admiration, once you have his notice -- followed by (girlish giggle on your part) surrender.

Until it's time for the next round...

Oh, one other thing. 5w4 INTJ alpha males are capable of almost unspeakable bursts of intensity (in the terawatt range) for short periods, but then they need to recharge. ALONE. Only exceptions being throw his favorite sandwich into the door of the computer room, and leave, or ... [censored]. And either way NO emotional demands should be made on him during the recharge.

Insecurities center around loyalty and faithfulness *towards* us. We don't cheat and so are devastated if we find we have been cheated *on*.

Some insecurities may center around in-person social activities, or punctuality / time management; we aren't xNFP-flighty enough when schedules slip.

Good activities include whatever his interests are (an INTJ in "happily aerosol-spray can of knowledge" is a wonder to behold!); introducing him to new books, music, art, or restaurants; non-competitive sports or hobbies (hiking, bicycling, that kind of thing); and in some cases, video games.

INTJs are often sticklers for punctuality and order; but some can be almost as slovenly as an INFP, due to the utterly single-minded focus on the latest interest, and forgetting to cook, eat, or pretty much anything else while the intense data download is going on.

Best wishes.

I dated an INTJ 5w4 and I wholeheartedly agree with what you wrote here.
He could have written a lot of it himself.

 

[violet_crown]

Thank you for your response, [MENTION=20856]grey_beard[/MENTION].

What did you mean by the lack of "internally facing defenses"?

 

[grey_beard]

Thank you for your response, [MENTION=20856]grey_beard[/MENTION].

What did you mean by the lack of "internally facing defenses"?

[MENTION=7254]Wind Up Rex[/MENTION] --

An INTJ has the functions Ni, Te, Fi, Se.

The stereotypical way to characterize them is that of an armored vehicle, a tank, with no emotions.
But that's not true -- all their emotions are on the inside.
So they're like an impenetrable armored shell, but if you happen to get inside that, there's nothing
of any hardness or durability at all -- it's like marshmallow fluff *all the way down*.

But everything that involves analysis, or categorizing, at which they are so formidable, and which
they could use to defend themselves, is *OUTWARDLY DIRECTED*.

Which means, that if they've trusted someone, and let them inside the armor -- a three-year-old
armed with only a pea shooter could conquer them entirely inside of a week.

Therefore, if you have been trusted, and you hurt them...the ONLY option they have, is to kick you out,
and to put in fresh, brand-new armor on everything you've ever touched.

Another way to put it, is if you hurt them on the inside, it's like severing an emotional artery.
Their only hope is to stop the bleeding, IMMEDIATELY, and irrevocably, lest they bleed to death.
The way they do this is autocauterization: everything having had to do with you, emotionally,
is charred, burnt, sealed by fire, all at once, in order to close the blood vessels and stop the bleeding.

Yes, it's painful: but being self-inflicted, it's much easier for an INTJ to heal from that, than
from damage inflicted by another.

Sorry if that isn't much use: I honestly to goodnessly don't have any other language to describe it.

 

[WhoCares]

[MENTION=7254]Wind Up Rex[/MENTION] --

Therefore, if you have been trusted, and you hurt them...the ONLY option they have, is to kick you out,
and to put in fresh, brand-new armor on everything you've ever touched.

This. I will never allow another person under that defense again. The bleeding never ends. I feel as if I shall always be weaker for that wound.

 

[grey_beard]

This. I will never allow another person under that defense again. The bleeding never ends. I feel as if I shall always be weaker for that wound.

[MENTION=16264]WhoCares[/MENTION] -- I am desperately sorry to hear that. Let me encourage you by saying that you *can* heal; it is just that you need to do the root cause analysis yourself;
which can be excruciatingly slow and painful. Paradoxically, one of the best ways to do this, is *NOT* to introspect directly; you'll just end up in an Ni-Fi infinite loop.
Rather, find as close an analog to the pain or the relationship which hurt you, as you can, in the OUTSIDE world, among other people. Set your Te on "automated seek and destroy" mode and pull in as many parallels from your analysis as you can. With any luck, you'll get enough factual/emotional nodes to hang an Ni approximation mesh onto, and you can then intuit the real causes of your own pain, at which point solutions and healings become intuitively obvious.

Best wishes.

 

[Rasofy]

Provide good sex & intellectual stimulation without drama and everything should be smooth. If you want something more serious, try to support him with his goals (INTJs tend to be ambitious). Add value to his life, basically.

What are--generally speaking--deal breakers?

Bitchiness, unreliability, emotional neediness.

 

[011235813]

I'm pretty sure 5s secretly envy and crave the 8's unapologetic approach to life where they swoop in, take what they want and thoroughly enjoy it before they find a new target to conquer.

I think a lot of how you are naturally would be energizing and exciting to them, so that's always a good start.

 

[grey_beard]

I'm pretty sure 5s secretly envy and crave the 8's unapologetic approach to life where they swoop in, take what they want and thoroughly enjoy it before they find a new target to conquer.

I think a lot of how you are naturally would be energizing and exciting to them, so that's always a good start.

[MENTION=13147]senza tema[/MENTION] -- Thanks for posting that; didn't I read somewhere that the 5 *integrates* to an 8?

 

[Totenkindly]

didn't I read somewhere that the 5 *integrates* to an 8?

Yup, it's basically moving from a place of intellectualizing/internalizing information to using that information to enact change in the external world. There can be a longing for Eight style behavior, at least in the sense that they have power externally, and 5's might desire that efficacy but also be loathe initially to throw their weight around and upset balances or impose.

 

[violet_crown]

[MENTION=7254]Wind Up Rex[/MENTION] --

An INTJ has the functions Ni, Te, Fi, Se.

The stereotypical way to characterize them is that of an armored vehicle, a tank, with no emotions.
But that's not true -- all their emotions are on the inside.
So they're like an impenetrable armored shell, but if you happen to get inside that, there's nothing
of any hardness or durability at all -- it's like marshmallow fluff *all the way down*.

But everything that involves analysis, or categorizing, at which they are so formidable, and which
they could use to defend themselves, is *OUTWARDLY DIRECTED*.

Which means, that if they've trusted someone, and let them inside the armor -- a three-year-old
armed with only a pea shooter could conquer them entirely inside of a week.

Therefore, if you have been trusted, and you hurt them...the ONLY option they have, is to kick you out,
and to put in fresh, brand-new armor on everything you've ever touched.

Another way to put it, is if you hurt them on the inside, it's like severing an emotional artery.
Their only hope is to stop the bleeding, IMMEDIATELY, and irrevocably, lest they bleed to death.
The way they do this is autocauterization: everything having had to do with you, emotionally,
is charred, burnt, sealed by fire, all at once, in order to close the blood vessels and stop the bleeding.

Yes, it's painful: but being self-inflicted, it's much easier for an INTJ to heal from that, than
from damage inflicted by another.

Sorry if that isn't much use: I honestly to goodnessly don't have any other language to describe it.

This was brilliantly stated, and a fascinating point of contrast speaking from the standpoint of an ENTJ.

I was curious if you might shed some light on something else I've observed in the INTJ that makes me wonder if I might have mistyped his wing.

We've really only been seeing each other for about a week, but things have progressed pretty steadily during that time. We've spent almost every day of that time together just hanging out and getting to know one another. He admitted to me that he'd struggled with depression in the past, and I in turn disclosed to him that I had dealt with mental health issues for most of my adult life. The next day, we're texting, and he tells me that on the one hand he's scared of frightening me off with the intensity of his feelings for me so early on, and on the other, he viewed our relationship as "high risk, high reward".

When asked to explain what he meant by that, he said, "Well, the way that I see it, we either end up happily ever after, or effectively co-dependent while being chronically emotionally and materially insecure. The purgatory scene from What Dreams May Come comes to mind, or two people living in something like the house in Fight Club"

I was completely taken aback by this sorta catastrophic thinking. Especially because in what he described, he managed to hit on a fairly core fear for me as someone who has dealt with mental illness. I'm still not sure how to interpret it. Having been raised by an INTJ mother, I'm familiar enough with Ni to know to pay attention when it speaks like that, and I can't help but wonder if maybe the comment was some sort of conscious or unconscious effort at sabotaging the relationship before it left the gate really. What is your take?

 

[grey_beard]

This was brilliantly stated, and a fascinating point of contrast speaking from the standpoint of an ENTJ.

I was curious if you might shed some light on something else I've observed in the INTJ that makes me wonder if I might have mistyped his wing.

We've really only been seeing each other for about a week, but things have progressed pretty steadily during that time. We've spent almost every day of that time together just hanging out and getting to know one another. He admitted to me that he'd struggled with depression in the past, and I in turn disclosed to him that I had dealt with mental health issues for most of my adult life. The next day, we're texting, and he tells me that on the one hand he's scared of frightening me off with the intensity of his feelings for me so early on, and on the other, he viewed our relationship as "high risk, high reward".

When asked to explain what he meant by that, he said, "Well, the way that I see it, we either end up happily ever after, or effectively co-dependent while being chronically emotionally and materially insecure. The purgatory scene from What Dreams May Come comes to mind, or two people living in something like the house in Fight Club"

I was completely taken aback by this sorta catastrophic thinking. Especially because in what he described, he managed to hit on a fairly core fear for me as someone who has dealt with mental illness. I'm still not sure how to interpret it. Having been raised by an INTJ mother, I'm familiar enough with Ni to know to pay attention when it speaks like that, and I can't help but wonder if maybe the comment was some sort of conscious or unconscious effort at sabotaging the relationship before it left the gate really. What is your take?

He ain't sabotaging you *or* the relationship. Quite the contrary: he's smitten, or trusts you, or both, already -- so much so that he's "laying all his cards on the table" and showing you his secret fears that his massive INTJ laser / Ni database have revealed as a possibility.

Next step -- should you wish to continue / pursue the relationship with him -- disclose and/or delve each other's emotional weak spots and pressure points (press her *here* and she goes apesh*t; jab him *there* and he falls into a heap of INTJ scrap parts); resolve/promise/swear by whatever the two of you hold binding, that you shall NEVER inflict each other's pressure points as a weapon, even during a titanic struggle of wills, not even during "last ditch defense" mode; and decide, short of that, what relationship/life issues are likely to hit those buttons, and begin to craft effective workarounds.

Best wishes.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Don't overwhelm him with "what are you feeling?" types of questions. As a T dom and a 5, I can say that just because I might seem uncaring or unwilling to share my feelings in the heat of the moment, it doesn't mean I don't care or am not feeling anything. It just takes some time to sort it all out--sometimes minutes, more often hours, perhaps even days to fully realize what is going on with my emotions and/or feelings. The reason for this is that feelings (not to be confused with emotions) aren't exactly my strong area--they do not take high priority in my thoughts and day-to-day life. If any given object, situation, conversation, etc can't be worked out in a purely logical manner which I can easily analyze and make sense of, then it can be extremely difficult for me to make sense of it all, thus leading me to feel overwhelmed and no longer in control of my mind and thoughts, thus needing to retreat to isolation until I can sort it all out.

His retreats to isolation shouldn't reflect on you--he NEEDS this to function as a healthy 5, so don't think it's because of some fault on your part. It just means he needs that time to recharge and/or sort out exactly what it is he is feeling and thinking.

If you continue to prod and poke him for an immediate reaction or assessment of his feelings, you'll likely provoke an intense emotional outburst which could lead to misunderstanding or bruised ego/emotions on your part.

 

[violet_crown]

He ain't sabotaging you *or* the relationship. Quite the contrary: he's smitten, or trusts you, or both, already -- so much so that he's "laying all his cards on the table" and showing you his secret fears that his massive INTJ laser / Ni database have revealed as a possibility.

Understood.

Next step -- should you wish to continue / pursue the relationship with him -- disclose and/or delve each other's emotional weak spots and pressure points (press her *here* and she goes apesh*t; jab him *there* and he falls into a heap of INTJ scrap parts); resolve/promise/swear by whatever the two of you hold binding, that you shall NEVER inflict each other's pressure points as a weapon, even during a titanic struggle of wills, not even during "last ditch defense" mode; and decide, short of that, what relationship/life issues are likely to hit those buttons, and begin to craft effective workarounds.

This is what I meant by the contrast. Inferior feeling means that I don't always know what those sensitive points are, and in just contemplating that sort of inward exploration while reading this puts me in something of a cold sweat. How does one start a conversation like that? Things that frighten me tend to make me want to double down on the Te haha.

*pulls out checklist*

"And now you will--in descending order and to the best of your abilities--list your emotional and psychic vulnerabilities. You will then turn your head and cough."

I can learn him and learn to share my vulnerabilities to him as well, but can't it be gradual? Or do INTJs tend to require intimacy in that upfront way?

 

[grey_beard]

Understood.

That's half the battle -- and for you to have put it in *thinking* language means he'll trust and believe that you *do* get it. (thumbs up)

This is what I meant by the contrast. Inferior feeling means that I don't always know what those sensitive points are, and in just contemplating that sort of inward exploration while reading this puts me in something of a cold sweat. How does one start a conversation like that? Things that frighten me tend to make me want to double down on the Te haha.

Hoom, hmmm, well now, Treebeard doesn't quite know what to make of that. Do you have a function which allows you to remember times where you melted down or cried or whatever, and then use your Te to describe to your INTJ what was happening *around* you?
Maybe that would help him, between your Te and his...

*pulls out checklist*

"And now you will--in descending order and to the best of your abilities--list your emotional and psychic vulnerabilities. You will then turn your head and cough."

Ouch. Sh*t, I guess that *is* what it would feel like in your (or anyone else's) shoes. But from the INTJ's point of view, there's no game-playing, and you're both vulnerable together.

I can learn him and learn to share my vulnerabilities to him as well, but can't it be gradual? Or do INTJs tend to require intimacy in that upfront way?

Oh, of course. The *willingness* to disclose or explore, to not run away or to hide stuff, is what matters. Inexorable tenacity ("I'm going to keep pulling at this weed 'till...it...comes...up...by....the...ROOTS!" *is* a kind of patience, in not demanding immediate complete results.)

Congrats, and errr, sorry, all at the same time!

 

[grey_beard]

Don't overwhelm him with "what are you feeling?" types of questions. As a T dom and a 5, I can say that just because I might seem uncaring or unwilling to share my feelings in the heat of the moment, it doesn't mean I don't care or am not feeling anything. It just takes some time to sort it all out--sometimes minutes, more often hours, perhaps even days to fully realize what is going on with my emotions and/or feelings. The reason for this is that feelings (not to be confused with emotions) aren't exactly my strong area--they do not take high priority in my thoughts and day-to-day life. If any given object, situation, conversation, etc can't be worked out in a purely logical manner which I can easily analyze and make sense of, then it can be extremely difficult for me to make sense of it all, thus leading me to feel overwhelmed and no longer in control of my mind and thoughts, thus needing to retreat to isolation until I can sort it all out.

His retreats to isolation shouldn't reflect on you--he NEEDS this to function as a healthy 5, so don't think it's because of some fault on your part. It just means he needs that time to recharge and/or sort out exactly what it is he is feeling and thinking.

If you continue to prod and poke him for an immediate reaction or assessment of his feelings, you'll likely provoke an intense emotional outburst which could lead to misunderstanding or bruised ego/emotions on your part.

Agreed. "Bear-baiting" a T-dom 5 is not a wise idea unless you have a death wish.

...or it revolves around sex, in which case, prepare to be mauled.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Agreed. "Bear-baiting" a T-dom 5 is not a wise idea unless you have a death wish.

...or it revolves around sex, in which case, prepare to be mauled.

beware the pissed-off animal sex

 

[violet_crown]

Don't overwhelm him with "what are you feeling?" types of questions. As a T dom and a 5, I can say that just because I might seem uncaring or unwilling to share my feelings in the heat of the moment, it doesn't mean I don't care or am not feeling anything. It just takes some time to sort it all out--sometimes minutes, more often hours, perhaps even days to fully realize what is going on with my emotions and/or feelings. The reason for this is that feelings (not to be confused with emotions) aren't exactly my strong area--they do not take high priority in my thoughts and day-to-day life. If any given object, situation, conversation, etc can't be worked out in a purely logical manner which I can easily analyze and make sense of, then it can be extremely difficult for me to make sense of it all, thus leading me to feel overwhelmed and no longer in control of my mind and thoughts, thus needing to retreat to isolation until I can sort it all out.

His retreats to isolation shouldn't reflect on you--he NEEDS this to function as a healthy 5, so don't think it's because of some fault on your part. It just means he needs that time to recharge and/or sort out exactly what it is he is feeling and thinking.

If you continue to prod and poke him for an immediate reaction or assessment of his feelings, you'll likely provoke an intense emotional outburst which could lead to misunderstanding or bruised ego/emotions on your part.

I've started to observe his need for "recharge" periods. I'll check in via text, occasionally, but am comfortable doing my own thing.

A lot of what you described re: delayed emotional response time resonates as a T-dom myself. I call it my "boomerang" effect where I'll initially feel fine about something, and whatever I'm actually gonna feel about it might not set in for a few days or so. It probably makes me look more flighty than I am as I tend to act on the initial numbness, only to reverse it later when I've had time to let the real feelings emerge.

I'm curious if the lack of emphasis on emotions tends to contribute to indecisiveness? He asked me pretty early on whether it bothered me that he's more on the passive side. But calling him passive is not entirely accurate. He definitely knows his mind, and there are boundaries and definite convictions about things. There's just sort of a disconnect from the actual moment, if that makes sense? Like he kinda pulls things from the shelf that are pet passions, gets fired up, then is sorta disconnected again. It's like whatever's going on in there is a lot more engaging than what's going on around him, so it's where his focus is. I suppose that's sorta the definition of introversion/Ni-dominance, but it's just more pronounced than in INTJ 6s I've known.

Agreed. "Bear-baiting" a T-dom 5 is not a wise idea unless you have a death wish.

...or it revolves around sex, in which case, prepare to be mauled.

beware the pissed-off animal sex

*takes notes*

 

[Rampant]

I'm pretty sure 5s secretly envy and crave the 8's unapologetic approach to life where they swoop in, take what they want and thoroughly enjoy it before they find a new target to conquer.

I think a lot of how you are naturally would be energizing and exciting to them, so that's always a good start.

This is true. A large part of what makes 8s attractive, or perhaps EFPs attractive, is the apparently instant or easy transition from will/idea to action/expression. It's wonderful, to someone who can feel as though their will isn't their own or is far away, "out there" and their energy inaccessible to them. Even being in their wake is exhilarating.

Understood.



This is what I meant by the contrast. Inferior feeling means that I don't always know what those sensitive points are, and in just contemplating that sort of inward exploration while reading this puts me in something of a cold sweat. How does one start a conversation like that? Things that frighten me tend to make me want to double down on the Te haha.

*pulls out checklist*

"And now you will--in descending order and to the best of your abilities--list your emotional and psychic vulnerabilities. You will then turn your head and cough."

I can learn him and learn to share my vulnerabilities to him as well, but can't it be gradual? Or do INTJs tend to require intimacy in that upfront way?

I don't think it has to be so bidness like. You know how your dynamic is. The 5's mind is dark and full of terrors, however they desperately want to be shared. "Exposure" is an incredible thing for a 5; a rush and fear and an excitement and path to growth.