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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    didn't I read somewhere that the 5 *integrates* to an 8?
    Yup, it's basically moving from a place of intellectualizing/internalizing information to using that information to enact change in the external world. There can be a longing for Eight style behavior, at least in the sense that they have power externally, and 5's might desire that efficacy but also be loathe initially to throw their weight around and upset balances or impose.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    @Wind Up Rex --

    An INTJ has the functions Ni, Te, Fi, Se.

    The stereotypical way to characterize them is that of an armored vehicle, a tank, with no emotions.
    But that's not true -- all their emotions are on the inside.
    So they're like an impenetrable armored shell, but if you happen to get inside that, there's nothing
    of any hardness or durability at all -- it's like marshmallow fluff *all the way down*.

    But everything that involves analysis, or categorizing, at which they are so formidable, and which
    they could use to defend themselves, is *OUTWARDLY DIRECTED*.

    Which means, that if they've trusted someone, and let them inside the armor -- a three-year-old
    armed with only a pea shooter could conquer them entirely inside of a week.

    Therefore, if you have been trusted, and you hurt them...the ONLY option they have, is to kick you out,
    and to put in fresh, brand-new armor on everything you've ever touched.

    Another way to put it, is if you hurt them on the inside, it's like severing an emotional artery.
    Their only hope is to stop the bleeding, IMMEDIATELY, and irrevocably, lest they bleed to death.
    The way they do this is autocauterization: everything having had to do with you, emotionally,
    is charred, burnt, sealed by fire, all at once, in order to close the blood vessels and stop the bleeding.

    Yes, it's painful: but being self-inflicted, it's much easier for an INTJ to heal from that, than
    from damage inflicted by another.

    Sorry if that isn't much use: I honestly to goodnessly don't have any other language to describe it.
    This was brilliantly stated, and a fascinating point of contrast speaking from the standpoint of an ENTJ.

    I was curious if you might shed some light on something else I've observed in the INTJ that makes me wonder if I might have mistyped his wing.

    We've really only been seeing each other for about a week, but things have progressed pretty steadily during that time. We've spent almost every day of that time together just hanging out and getting to know one another. He admitted to me that he'd struggled with depression in the past, and I in turn disclosed to him that I had dealt with mental health issues for most of my adult life. The next day, we're texting, and he tells me that on the one hand he's scared of frightening me off with the intensity of his feelings for me so early on, and on the other, he viewed our relationship as "high risk, high reward".

    When asked to explain what he meant by that, he said, "Well, the way that I see it, we either end up happily ever after, or effectively co-dependent while being chronically emotionally and materially insecure. The purgatory scene from What Dreams May Come comes to mind, or two people living in something like the house in Fight Club"

    I was completely taken aback by this sorta catastrophic thinking. Especially because in what he described, he managed to hit on a fairly core fear for me as someone who has dealt with mental illness. I'm still not sure how to interpret it. Having been raised by an INTJ mother, I'm familiar enough with Ni to know to pay attention when it speaks like that, and I can't help but wonder if maybe the comment was some sort of conscious or unconscious effort at sabotaging the relationship before it left the gate really. What is your take?
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  3. #13
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    This was brilliantly stated, and a fascinating point of contrast speaking from the standpoint of an ENTJ.

    I was curious if you might shed some light on something else I've observed in the INTJ that makes me wonder if I might have mistyped his wing.

    We've really only been seeing each other for about a week, but things have progressed pretty steadily during that time. We've spent almost every day of that time together just hanging out and getting to know one another. He admitted to me that he'd struggled with depression in the past, and I in turn disclosed to him that I had dealt with mental health issues for most of my adult life. The next day, we're texting, and he tells me that on the one hand he's scared of frightening me off with the intensity of his feelings for me so early on, and on the other, he viewed our relationship as "high risk, high reward".

    When asked to explain what he meant by that, he said, "Well, the way that I see it, we either end up happily ever after, or effectively co-dependent while being chronically emotionally and materially insecure. The purgatory scene from What Dreams May Come comes to mind, or two people living in something like the house in Fight Club"

    I was completely taken aback by this sorta catastrophic thinking. Especially because in what he described, he managed to hit on a fairly core fear for me as someone who has dealt with mental illness. I'm still not sure how to interpret it. Having been raised by an INTJ mother, I'm familiar enough with Ni to know to pay attention when it speaks like that, and I can't help but wonder if maybe the comment was some sort of conscious or unconscious effort at sabotaging the relationship before it left the gate really. What is your take?
    He ain't sabotaging you *or* the relationship. Quite the contrary: he's smitten, or trusts you, or both, already -- so much so that he's "laying all his cards on the table" and showing you his secret fears that his massive INTJ laser / Ni database have revealed as a possibility.

    Next step -- should you wish to continue / pursue the relationship with him -- disclose and/or delve each other's emotional weak spots and pressure points (press her *here* and she goes apesh*t; jab him *there* and he falls into a heap of INTJ scrap parts); resolve/promise/swear by whatever the two of you hold binding, that you shall NEVER inflict each other's pressure points as a weapon, even during a titanic struggle of wills, not even during "last ditch defense" mode; and decide, short of that, what relationship/life issues are likely to hit those buttons, and begin to craft effective workarounds.

    Best wishes.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  4. #14
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    Don't overwhelm him with "what are you feeling?" types of questions. As a T dom and a 5, I can say that just because I might seem uncaring or unwilling to share my feelings in the heat of the moment, it doesn't mean I don't care or am not feeling anything. It just takes some time to sort it all out--sometimes minutes, more often hours, perhaps even days to fully realize what is going on with my emotions and/or feelings. The reason for this is that feelings (not to be confused with emotions) aren't exactly my strong area--they do not take high priority in my thoughts and day-to-day life. If any given object, situation, conversation, etc can't be worked out in a purely logical manner which I can easily analyze and make sense of, then it can be extremely difficult for me to make sense of it all, thus leading me to feel overwhelmed and no longer in control of my mind and thoughts, thus needing to retreat to isolation until I can sort it all out.

    His retreats to isolation shouldn't reflect on you--he NEEDS this to function as a healthy 5, so don't think it's because of some fault on your part. It just means he needs that time to recharge and/or sort out exactly what it is he is feeling and thinking.

    If you continue to prod and poke him for an immediate reaction or assessment of his feelings, you'll likely provoke an intense emotional outburst which could lead to misunderstanding or bruised ego/emotions on your part.

  5. #15
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    He ain't sabotaging you *or* the relationship. Quite the contrary: he's smitten, or trusts you, or both, already -- so much so that he's "laying all his cards on the table" and showing you his secret fears that his massive INTJ laser / Ni database have revealed as a possibility.
    Understood.

    Next step -- should you wish to continue / pursue the relationship with him -- disclose and/or delve each other's emotional weak spots and pressure points (press her *here* and she goes apesh*t; jab him *there* and he falls into a heap of INTJ scrap parts); resolve/promise/swear by whatever the two of you hold binding, that you shall NEVER inflict each other's pressure points as a weapon, even during a titanic struggle of wills, not even during "last ditch defense" mode; and decide, short of that, what relationship/life issues are likely to hit those buttons, and begin to craft effective workarounds.
    This is what I meant by the contrast. Inferior feeling means that I don't always know what those sensitive points are, and in just contemplating that sort of inward exploration while reading this puts me in something of a cold sweat. How does one start a conversation like that? Things that frighten me tend to make me want to double down on the Te haha.

    *pulls out checklist*

    "And now you will--in descending order and to the best of your abilities--list your emotional and psychic vulnerabilities. You will then turn your head and cough."

    I can learn him and learn to share my vulnerabilities to him as well, but can't it be gradual? Or do INTJs tend to require intimacy in that upfront way?
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  6. #16
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    Understood.
    That's half the battle -- and for you to have put it in *thinking* language means he'll trust and believe that you *do* get it. (thumbs up)



    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    This is what I meant by the contrast. Inferior feeling means that I don't always know what those sensitive points are, and in just contemplating that sort of inward exploration while reading this puts me in something of a cold sweat. How does one start a conversation like that? Things that frighten me tend to make me want to double down on the Te haha.
    Hoom, hmmm, well now, Treebeard doesn't quite know what to make of that. Do you have a function which allows you to remember times where you melted down or cried or whatever, and then use your Te to describe to your INTJ what was happening *around* you?
    Maybe that would help him, between your Te and his...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    *pulls out checklist*

    "And now you will--in descending order and to the best of your abilities--list your emotional and psychic vulnerabilities. You will then turn your head and cough."
    Ouch. Sh*t, I guess that *is* what it would feel like in your (or anyone else's) shoes. But from the INTJ's point of view, there's no game-playing, and you're both vulnerable together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    I can learn him and learn to share my vulnerabilities to him as well, but can't it be gradual? Or do INTJs tend to require intimacy in that upfront way?
    Oh, of course. The *willingness* to disclose or explore, to not run away or to hide stuff, is what matters. Inexorable tenacity ("I'm going to keep pulling at this weed 'till...it...comes...up...by....the...ROOTS!" *is* a kind of patience, in not demanding immediate complete results.)

    Congrats, and errr, sorry, all at the same time!
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  7. #17
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Conduit View Post
    Don't overwhelm him with "what are you feeling?" types of questions. As a T dom and a 5, I can say that just because I might seem uncaring or unwilling to share my feelings in the heat of the moment, it doesn't mean I don't care or am not feeling anything. It just takes some time to sort it all out--sometimes minutes, more often hours, perhaps even days to fully realize what is going on with my emotions and/or feelings. The reason for this is that feelings (not to be confused with emotions) aren't exactly my strong area--they do not take high priority in my thoughts and day-to-day life. If any given object, situation, conversation, etc can't be worked out in a purely logical manner which I can easily analyze and make sense of, then it can be extremely difficult for me to make sense of it all, thus leading me to feel overwhelmed and no longer in control of my mind and thoughts, thus needing to retreat to isolation until I can sort it all out.

    His retreats to isolation shouldn't reflect on you--he NEEDS this to function as a healthy 5, so don't think it's because of some fault on your part. It just means he needs that time to recharge and/or sort out exactly what it is he is feeling and thinking.

    If you continue to prod and poke him for an immediate reaction or assessment of his feelings, you'll likely provoke an intense emotional outburst which could lead to misunderstanding or bruised ego/emotions on your part.
    Agreed. "Bear-baiting" a T-dom 5 is not a wise idea unless you have a death wish.

    ...or it revolves around sex, in which case, prepare to be mauled.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Agreed. "Bear-baiting" a T-dom 5 is not a wise idea unless you have a death wish.

    ...or it revolves around sex, in which case, prepare to be mauled.
    beware the pissed-off animal sex

  9. #19
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Conduit View Post
    Don't overwhelm him with "what are you feeling?" types of questions. As a T dom and a 5, I can say that just because I might seem uncaring or unwilling to share my feelings in the heat of the moment, it doesn't mean I don't care or am not feeling anything. It just takes some time to sort it all out--sometimes minutes, more often hours, perhaps even days to fully realize what is going on with my emotions and/or feelings. The reason for this is that feelings (not to be confused with emotions) aren't exactly my strong area--they do not take high priority in my thoughts and day-to-day life. If any given object, situation, conversation, etc can't be worked out in a purely logical manner which I can easily analyze and make sense of, then it can be extremely difficult for me to make sense of it all, thus leading me to feel overwhelmed and no longer in control of my mind and thoughts, thus needing to retreat to isolation until I can sort it all out.

    His retreats to isolation shouldn't reflect on you--he NEEDS this to function as a healthy 5, so don't think it's because of some fault on your part. It just means he needs that time to recharge and/or sort out exactly what it is he is feeling and thinking.

    If you continue to prod and poke him for an immediate reaction or assessment of his feelings, you'll likely provoke an intense emotional outburst which could lead to misunderstanding or bruised ego/emotions on your part.
    I've started to observe his need for "recharge" periods. I'll check in via text, occasionally, but am comfortable doing my own thing.

    A lot of what you described re: delayed emotional response time resonates as a T-dom myself. I call it my "boomerang" effect where I'll initially feel fine about something, and whatever I'm actually gonna feel about it might not set in for a few days or so. It probably makes me look more flighty than I am as I tend to act on the initial numbness, only to reverse it later when I've had time to let the real feelings emerge.

    I'm curious if the lack of emphasis on emotions tends to contribute to indecisiveness? He asked me pretty early on whether it bothered me that he's more on the passive side. But calling him passive is not entirely accurate. He definitely knows his mind, and there are boundaries and definite convictions about things. There's just sort of a disconnect from the actual moment, if that makes sense? Like he kinda pulls things from the shelf that are pet passions, gets fired up, then is sorta disconnected again. It's like whatever's going on in there is a lot more engaging than what's going on around him, so it's where his focus is. I suppose that's sorta the definition of introversion/Ni-dominance, but it's just more pronounced than in INTJ 6s I've known.


    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Agreed. "Bear-baiting" a T-dom 5 is not a wise idea unless you have a death wish.

    ...or it revolves around sex, in which case, prepare to be mauled.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Conduit View Post
    beware the pissed-off animal sex


    *takes notes*
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  10. #20
    Member Rampant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    I'm pretty sure 5s secretly envy and crave the 8's unapologetic approach to life where they swoop in, take what they want and thoroughly enjoy it before they find a new target to conquer.

    I think a lot of how you are naturally would be energizing and exciting to them, so that's always a good start.
    This is true. A large part of what makes 8s attractive, or perhaps EFPs attractive, is the apparently instant or easy transition from will/idea to action/expression. It's wonderful, to someone who can feel as though their will isn't their own or is far away, "out there" and their energy inaccessible to them. Even being in their wake is exhilarating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    Understood.



    This is what I meant by the contrast. Inferior feeling means that I don't always know what those sensitive points are, and in just contemplating that sort of inward exploration while reading this puts me in something of a cold sweat. How does one start a conversation like that? Things that frighten me tend to make me want to double down on the Te haha.

    *pulls out checklist*

    "And now you will--in descending order and to the best of your abilities--list your emotional and psychic vulnerabilities. You will then turn your head and cough."

    I can learn him and learn to share my vulnerabilities to him as well, but can't it be gradual? Or do INTJs tend to require intimacy in that upfront way?
    I don't think it has to be so bidness like. You know how your dynamic is. The 5's mind is dark and full of terrors, however they desperately want to be shared. "Exposure" is an incredible thing for a 5; a rush and fear and an excitement and path to growth.
    Likes grey_beard liked this post

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