[Type 1] Ask a 1w2

[OrderOfTheCaelifera]

In the movie (with Chris Pine ), definitely. I'd say ISTJ 5w6 sp/so.

I haven't heard much about the show, but the main typing I've seen of him with good reasoning behind it is INTJ 1w9 sp/sx.

That very well may be correct, I haven't watched any newer versions of the Star Trek show but rather based my opinion from a Star Trek movie that was released 5-6 years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mxru4FJEIw

 

[Cloud of Thunder]

What do you think of 4s, your stress type?

 

[EJCC]

What do you think of 4s, your stress type?

Prefacing this with the typical preface: pretty much everyone has a negative gut reaction to their stress type, in some way or another.

There's a lot I don't understand about 4s -- especially how they can prioritize individual identity above all, without ever seeming to be able to gain a steady grasp on it. There are also things I appreciate about them. I appreciate that they're very wise in a lot of ways. I appreciate their kindness and compassion. On the negative side, it bothers me that they don't seem to understand others' emotional limits, namely that not everyone has the same capacity for, or willingness to take on, heavy loads of feeling.

The way that 4s seem to be raw almost all the time is pretty triggering, precisely because that's how 1s are in their absolute darkest moments. On more than one occasion, and with more than one person, it's made me try to "fix" the 4, only to figure out that that rawness was their standard operating procedure -- that what I perceived to be the problem, was actually their solution. Hard for me not to see that as unnecessarily dramatic and masochistic, even though it works for them and gives them a different kind of strength.

 

[Showbread]

How do you generally interact with 2w1s?

What do you do in situations where you are 85% sure that you are right, but the person you are arguing with also seems very confident? Do you fight for the last word? Or let them have it?

 

[EJCC]

How do you generally interact with 2w1s?

I like 'em. I feel like we have a lot of the same priorities, so we can have pretty accurate working assumptions about each other. Ideally we'd agree on most things, because I'd hate to ever have to see that 8 disintegration aimed at me!

What do you do in situations where you are 85% sure that you are right, but the person you are arguing with also seems very confident? Do you fight for the last word? Or let them have it?

This would probably differ pretty widely depending on the 1w2 (attn [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] ), but in my case, it's never really about the last word, nor is it really about "winning" -- it's about either convincing them, or being convinced. You'd think that without the focus on winning, I'd be less intense about it, but I'm VERY resistant to leaving a discussion like that without having some kind of closure, or a good stopping point. In a case like what you described, I'd decide whether it was likely that I'd convince them entirely -- and if not, I'd try for a smaller goal, and then call it a day.

 

[á´…eparted]

What do you think of 4s, your stress type?

Not a fan. They're the enneagram type that usually causes the strongest "ick" response with me. Not all are bad of course, and I am close with a few, but by and large I don't like most E4's. There is simply way way too much focus on the self, to the point where it comes across as snooty. Or, it makes the individual seem like they have no self-esteem. The constant need to refine who they are, what they believe, and what makes them an individual is just, annoying and at worst egotistical. I guess a lot of it comes from the idea of needing to be genuine and authentic just never crosses my mind. Reason being is I simply see that stuff as implicit. I like what I like and that's that. Of course there are times where I feel twinges of guilt or shame for liking something that is attached to a bad image or w/e, but it's not a big deal and certainly not my focus. Many can get stuck wallowing in self-pity saying "I suck" kind of things, and it's just frustrating. Get the stick out of your ass and try and do something about it. I value productivity and effort which is something 4's shirk sometimes. This is more seen with 9's, but 4's can also have issues meekness, which greatly annoys me. Grow. A. Spine. Interestingly I don't have problems with 9's because they are often very unassuming so their issues can easily be ignored. 4's sometimes put on a show for attention. Ahem, yeah no.

And of course, there's ye olde mirror effect. Because of it being the dissolve point, I can and do enter modes like this. It's not exactly like 4's do, but I can get overcome with so much "I'm imperfect and broken" from repeated failures and not meeting standards that I can start to wallow in ick, and I hate myself for it. I am very ashamed of it and try and hide it from everyone as much as I can. I crack (and do so more on forums than elsewhere). I really detest becoming like something that I do not like in others. In a way, it invalidates my wanting to bonk people on the head for it because I do it sometimes.

How do you generally interact with 2w1s?

What do you do in situations where you are 85% sure that you are right, but the person you are arguing with also seems very confident? Do you fight for the last word? Or let them have it?

I like 2's. When they get bent out of shape for not being "needed" enough or useful when it wasn't asked I can quell that in them quite easily. Essentially I can work with them very easily. I don't really identify with 2's very much though. It's my wing mostly because I do not identify with 9 at all. I'm like the inverse of a 9. Usually though their quite cordial and I very much respect that and get on board with it. I don't have any 2's in my life to my knowledge so it's difficult to say much.

85%? Hmm... hard to say. I think that number wobbles a little, but I generally only go gung ho balls to the wall "I'm right, you're wrong" when I know I am 100% right, and with facts to back it up. You want to set me off? Keep resisting in those situations. Even if there is a little uncertainty I tend to not get too rigid, because I really do not like making mistakes, it makes me feel horrible. I'll argue my point strongly, but openly acknowledge my uncertainty. It would also depend on how they respond, if they're really gung ho about it and won't ease off I will attempt to agree to disagree. If that doesn't work, then I'll make a declarative conversation-ending statement so I can close it (don't like things being open ended).

Sometimes the last word matters, other times it doesn't. Generally don't care. What I care about is closing the argument or discussion with as little uncertainty as possible. I'll usually go "ok, we don't agree, I think this, you think that, there's no common ground, you won't budge, there isn't any point in discussing anymore, I am ending it here." and if they reply after that (usually) I won't care because I laid the cores on the table. I let people have the last word if they either deserve it, need it, or the conversation is neutral.

 

[EJCC]

The constant need to refine who they are, what they believe, and what makes them an individual

The bolded drives me a little nuts, too. My gut reaction to it is distrust, because it suggests that their core values aren't really core values, so much as they are a fun little game to pick apart. Except that they clearly do care about those values -- especially when they're well-integrated to 1. Yet another example of the necessity of setting that gut reaction aside.

I guess a lot of it comes from the idea of needing to be genuine and authentic just never crosses my mind. Reason being is I simply see that stuff as implicit. I like what I like and that's that.

Yeah it seems to be an interesting irony of type 4, that they're one of the only types that ISN'T like that, and yet they care so much about their individual identity. I think the difference is that they're pickier and more perfectionistic about it. Something that we, as 1s, can relate to, except that the identity we're picky about is this sort of Platonic ideal that's hovering over us 24/7, rarely changing, if ever.

What I care about is closing the argument or discussion with as little uncertainty as possible. I'll usually go "ok, we don't agree, I think this, you think that, there's no common ground, you won't budge, there isn't any point in discussing anymore, I am ending it here."

Yep, same.

 

[á´…eparted]

The bolded drives me a little nuts, too. My gut reaction to it is distrust, because it suggests that their core values aren't really core values, so much as they are a fun little game to pick apart. Except that they clearly do care about those values -- especially when they're well-integrated to 1. Yet another example of the necessity of setting that gut reaction aside.

Yeah it seems to be an interesting irony of type 4, that they're one of the only types that ISN'T like that, and yet they care so much about their individual identity. I think the difference is that they're pickier and more perfectionistic about it. Something that we, as 1s, can relate to, except that the identity we're picky about is this sort of Platonic ideal that's hovering over us 24/7, rarely changing, if ever.

Yep, same.

The bold is a really interesting point. 4's often are quite perfectionistic in general, and I see it in many of them here, and in real life. What baffles me though is how they go about it and what they are perfectionistic about. They're completely different from the perfectionism I have in myself. It's more that who/what they are must be right. Where as with 1's it more of what we do must be right. Internal versus external in a way. I mean I do have a little of "what I am must be right" but it's almost always to fix an external "do".

I also agree on the distrust bit. It's ironic really, they put so much effort on getting their core internals right that it can make them seem ingenuine to me, which is exactly what they don't want. I used to just hate all 4's in the past, but it was all a gut reaction "ew... a 4? blegh, they must be like this, this and this. Ain't no one got time for that!" more often than not they're fine or even lovely people. They can be remarkablly kind, sweet, and caring, to the point where sometimes I feel like I am gonna get diabetes .

I don't know if you relate to this, but 1's in general have a lot of tension. I hold in a lot and if I am poked at the right angle, it starts to uncork (and 4's can be quite good at this). It's sort of like someone hugging you, and you're like "stop, let go, let GO! *KICK* LET ME GO RARRHH... *sobs uncontrolably* I'm so deprived T_T"

 

[EJCC]

The bold is a really interesting point. 4's often are quite perfectionistic in general, and I see it in many of them here, and in real life. What baffles me though is how they go about it and what they are perfectionistic about. They're completely different from the perfectionism I have in myself. It's more that who/what they are must be right. Where as with 1's it more of what we do must be right. Internal versus external in a way. I mean I do have a little of "what I am must be right" but it's almost always to fix an external "do".

Which is why we so often disintegrate to 4 when we haven't been doing things right in a while. External validation fades away and all we're left with is wrongness, ineptitude. And the only way out is to pull yourself up and do things right again.

I also agree on the distrust bit. It's ironic really, they put so much effort on getting their core internals right that it can make them seem ingenuine to me, which is exactly what they don't want.

I get the strongest vibe on that from less healthy 4s, and I think that's because there's some overcompensation in there. Whereas with a more mature and healthy 4 that's integrated to 1, it's easier to see that refining as part of a quest for a similar kind of "rightness" to what us 1s are looking for.

I don't know if you relate to this, but 1's in general have a lot of tension. I hold in a lot and if I am poked at the right angle, it starts to uncork (and 4's can be quite good at this). It's sort of like someone hugging you, and you're like "stop, let go, let GO! *KICK* LET ME GO RARRHH... *sobs uncontrolably* I'm so deprived T_T"

Usually I save the sobbing until no one's around, but the rest of that I can relate to.

 

[Cloud of Thunder]

Not a fan. They're the enneagram type that usually causes the strongest "ick" response with me. Not all are bad of course, and I am close with a few, but by and large I don't like most E4's. There is simply way way too much focus on the self, to the point where it comes across as snooty. Or, it makes the individual seem like they have no self-esteem. The constant need to refine who they are, what they believe, and what makes them an individual is just, annoying and at worst egotistical. I guess a lot of it comes from the idea of needing to be genuine and authentic just never crosses my mind. Reason being is I simply see that stuff as implicit. I like what I like and that's that. Of course there are times where I feel twinges of guilt or shame for liking something that is attached to a bad image or w/e, but it's not a big deal and certainly not my focus. Many can get stuck wallowing in self-pity saying "I suck" kind of things, and it's just frustrating. Get the stick out of your ass and try and do something about it. I value productivity and effort which is something 4's shirk sometimes. This is more seen with 9's, but 4's can also have issues meekness, which greatly annoys me. Grow. A. Spine. Interestingly I don't have problems with 9's because they are often very unassuming so their issues can easily be ignored. 4's sometimes put on a show for attention. Ahem, yeah no.

And of course, there's ye olde mirror effect. Because of it being the dissolve point, I can and do enter modes like this. It's not exactly like 4's do, but I can get overcome with so much "I'm imperfect and broken" from repeated failures and not meeting standards that I can start to wallow in ick, and I hate myself for it. I am very ashamed of it and try and hide it from everyone as much as I can. I crack (and do so more on forums than elsewhere). I really detest becoming like something that I do not like in others. In a way, it invalidates my wanting to bonk people on the head for it because I do it sometimes.

In other words, the difference between Being Someone (4) and Doing Something (1). Comfort with "messy" emotions and wanting to control and quell them.

 

[EJCC]

In other words, the difference between Being Someone (4) and Doing Something (1).

IMO it's messier than that. Type 1 can have a VERY strong sense of identity IME, but it is created by the 1's actions. If you talk to a 1 about their sense of identity, they will probably have a set of adjectives all picked out, a set of core values/beliefs that they live by, that they define themselves by. "I am a person who does ___" = "I am ___". They try to keep that as consistent as possible, because if it changes, then that means they were doing it WRONG before. Which is why it's so unnerving to us, to watch 4s constantly shift their value systems and identities around. They're pretty much taking this thing that type 1 sees as the ultimate symbol of failure and pain -- i.e. disowning everything they stand for and starting fresh -- and doing it over and over again, for fun.

Comfort with "messy" emotions and wanting to control and quell them.

Comfort? That's interesting. From this angle it always seems less comforting and more masochistic.

 

[small.wonder]

IMO it's messier than that. Type 1 can have a VERY strong sense of identity IME, but it is created by the 1's actions. If you talk to a 1 about their sense of identity, they will probably have a set of adjectives all picked out, a set of core values/beliefs that they live by, that they define themselves by. "I am a person who does ___" = "I am ___". They try to keep that as consistent as possible, because if it changes, then that means they were doing it WRONG before. Which is why it's so unnerving to us, to watch 4s constantly shift their value systems and identities around. They're pretty much taking this thing that type 1 sees as the ultimate symbol of failure and pain -- i.e. disowning everything they stand for and starting fresh -- and doing it over and over again, for fun.

Hmm...had to comment on this because I think there's a bit of a misconception here. 4's are constantly searching for their true identity, yes (at least in average and low health). Forsaking their values however, is not part of that at all. It's not so much experimentation with life and morality, as it is a search within ourselves to get to the bottom of who we really are. We explore things pertaining to personal style, vocation, means of expression, spiritual truth etc. Also, motivation check: we don't do this for fun but as a quest for the authentic (which can be a tumultuous struggle). We feel that existing in a way that is not genuine is worthless (our version of the "doing it WRONG" you mentioned, though ours is determined by the truth of who we are, not an overarching rightness)-- we want to present our true self, even if it's ugly, strange or not culturally normal. To live "as if we have it all together" is completely foreign to 4's-- yes, even when integrating to 1. We still wear our hearts on our sleeves, just in a more matter of fact, direct way.

I hope the above is not taken the wrong way in the least, I mean it only as a clarification of the above and why 4's might rub you the wrong way (heck, I know my disintegration point does!). I actually like 1's for the most, I am close with three (two w/9's and a w/2) which makes my inner circle pretty Reformer-ish. Those friends are actually the reason this thread piqued my interest.

I have definitely noticed that I have driven 1's bonkers before (unintentionally) and in one case in particular, found that it was my lawless-ness that drove her crazy. This was in part due to the fact that she had chained herself down very tightly with rules, and I believe was envious (note: a symptom of disintegration) for the freedom I had to be myself. I suppose there are a variety of ways each type can drive the other crazy!

 

[Raffaella]

• In your childhood, did you always play the "adult" role? Where you rewarded for it?
• What's your perception of E9? What do you admire? What do you think needs to be improved upon? What advice, if you have any, would you give?
• What's you perception of E8? What do you admire? What do you think needs to be improved upon? What advice, if you have any, would you give?

 

[á´…eparted]

• In your childhood, did you always play the "adult" role? Where you rewarded for it?

Not really. I wanted to be the authority figure, the judge, the leader, the teacher, but not really the "adult" per say. I had maturity problems as I grew up with Asperger's and didn't always execute social things correctly. When I hear the term "adult" I usually think mature and well behaved. Assuming that, I almost never did even when I tried, and I was often punished or in trouble for not doing things correctly. That said, I was often rewarded or regarded for organizing or leading people as that aspect came naturally. When I was given some sort of power, structure, or control then I behaved rather well. It's when I had to be subservient or just listen/behave without given a reason or understanding why. I had problem sitting still and being quiet unless I was stimulated in some regard.

That said, I was always considered rather "adult" with my observations of others.

• What's your perception of E9? What do you admire? What do you think needs to be improved upon? What advice, if you have any, would you give?

I don't relate to E9 at all. In many ways it is the opposite of me. The only thing I relate to with them is I do seek peace/harmony to keep myself stable, but who doesn't? Either way, E9's are known for not wanting or having solid opinions; I have an opinion on pretty much everything and go out of my way to find one. They like keeping things open and free; I need things nailed down and locked in. They seek to present a calm placid position and usually speak softly; I am rather energetic, dramatic, and while not loud, I am not the least bit quiet. They fear loss, abandoment, and separation; these do not concern me at all, and I am unphased when people leave me (even suddenly). I can snip the cord quite easily myself. They avoid conflict; I attempt to defuse it, and don't have issues with wading in it if needed. I could go on for a while but I am starting to diverge. Point is, I am not like them at all.

It's that difference that can create a problem. I suspect a lot of 9's would be put off by me. Some for "intensity" (though I don't consider myself that intense of a person, just a strong presence), but mostly for doing they kinds of things they don't want. I have had to work with 9's before and it can drive me bonkers. The former president of a group I am part of (humans vs. zombies) and I butt head a lot last year because he refused to nail anything down when I felt we had to, and when It tried to, he'd try and stop me, and do so in a passive manner. He has a spine, but he doesn't act like it and it just makes me turn up my nose in an "ick!" kind of response. The thing that drives me nuts the most is their sheer ambivalence to almost everything. Opinions aren't scary. In fact, their useful and needed. In general 9's will either irritate me, bore me to death, and in rare cases anger me if their fence sitting infringes upon me by forcing inaction.

That said, I do admire their clear headedness and ability to see all sides of an issues pretty much every time. I'll lock into something fast (sometimes too fast) because I can think things through quickly, and I'll want to nail something and get it done. They'll get me to pause and consider something I didn't see though, and in some cases bring to like grave errors I could make for not seeing another prospective. When I was an admin on the INFJforums one of my fellow admins was a 9w1, and her ability to see all sides consistently was super admirable, and I benefited from it (we worked very well together and balanced each other). It was impossible for anyone to get mad at her or hate her. Can't say the same for myself.

As far as thing to improve upon and advice? It's difficult to say. I mean, these are personality types we're talking about. They sort of are what they are. The best thing you can do is just better yourself. The biggest thing I would suggest to 9's is that it is ok to take a stand and be declarative from time to time. Don't lose yourself in what makes you great mediators.

• What's you perception of E8? What do you admire? What do you think needs to be improved upon? What advice, if you have any, would you give?

I actually don't have that much experience with E8's. I knew few online, and few IRL. My best friend in high school I strongly suspect is an ENFP E8, but I am not sold on it. Her and I got along famously. Generally I perceive them as interesting characters, but from what little I have observed they seem to be a bit too much of slaves to their anger. I don't value (nor respect really) frequent displays of anger or any negative emotion. The thing with anger though, is it can very often lead to behavior that harms another and is usually very reprehensible and unjustifyable. While I admire their ability to take charge in an unrestrained manner, it doesn't seem that it alleviates the kinds of emotional pressure I have to deal with; i.e. they still have their issues as well. Again, I have little experience with them. I wonder if I repel them or visa versa? Or perhaps my circle of friends just doesn't attract them. Upon reflection of all the people I have come to know (and at one point considered a friend), E3, and E8 have been very rare (if any). Most of my good friends end up being E7's.

I don't really have any commentary on what needs to be improved upon except for please contain your temper. I lose a lot of respect for people who let that out often (in particular if it's vengeful or unjustifed.)

 

[EJCC]

In your childhood, did you always play the "adult" role? Where you rewarded for it?

Yeah sort of. I was a typical only child, in that I was expected to be very self-sufficient and adult-like, but also got a lot of attention, and enjoyed getting a lot of attention. I attribute a lot of my 7-ness to that. I guess you could say I played the "adult" role in that my parents had very high expectations of me, and always saw me as mature for my age. But I saw that less as an adult role, and more as "being a good kid" and "being a smart kid".

What's your perception of E9? What do you admire? What do you think needs to be improved upon? What advice, if you have any, would you give?

The way they ebb and flow somehow makes them very steady, calming, and reliably chill. I'm always impressed by that. Not sure about improvements because the 9 that drives me the most crazy is an INFJ, and a lot of the things that drive me crazy about him are INFJ-related as well as 9-related. I don't think I have any advice -- but then again, if a 9 is in a place where I'd need to give them advice, they'd probably ignore it.

What's you perception of E8? What do you admire? What do you think needs to be improved upon? What advice, if you have any, would you give?

I admire that they have no qualms about saying what everyone's thinking, and letting out all the anger that I always hold in. But I can get into this anger cycle with them, as well as with counterphobic sixes, where their anger makes me angrier, which makes me angry at THEM for making me angry, etc. And I usually end up holding that in because I don't want it to turn into a huge argument. I'm not sure I have any advice for them. Maybe to pick your battles, and to remember that kindness, restraint, etc., are not weaknesses, but are tactical tools.

 

[Noll]

What type(s) do you find yourself commonly not getting along with?

 

[HongDou]

How did others tend to perceive you as you were growing up?

 

[á´…eparted]

What type(s) do you find yourself commonly not getting along with?

I think I have answered this before. Either way E4's top the list, and E9's are a close second. After that it's hard to draw patterns.

How did others tend to perceive you as you were growing up?

I really ran the gambit with this one. Some people saw me as wise, some saw me as immature, some saw me as friendly and giving, some saw me as selfish, some saw me as cautious, some saw me as a walking tornado. The general consensus between everyone though was that I was curious, earnest, imaginative, talkative/friendly, moody, leader-type, and somewhat hyperactive.

 

[Riva]

If dating a/married to a e1 are there day to day minor things in general to e1s - and preferably limited to e1s - that could be done to avoid annoying you and make you happy?

 

[Raffaella]

Not really. I wanted to be the authority figure, the judge, the leader, the teacher, but not really the "adult" per say. I had maturity problems as I grew up with Asperger's and didn't always execute social things correctly. When I hear the term "adult" I usually think mature and well behaved. Assuming that, I almost never did even when I tried, and I was often punished or in trouble for not doing things correctly. That said, I was often rewarded or regarded for organizing or leading people as that aspect came naturally. When I was given some sort of power, structure, or control then I behaved rather well. It's when I had to be subservient or just listen/behave without given a reason or understanding why. I had problem sitting still and being quiet unless I was stimulated in some regard.

Yeah sort of. I was a typical only child, in that I was expected to be very self-sufficient and adult-like, but also got a lot of attention, and enjoyed getting a lot of attention. I attribute a lot of my 7-ness to that. I guess you could say I played the "adult" role in that my parents had very high expectations of me, and always saw me as mature for my age. But I saw that less as an adult role, and more as "being a good kid" and "being a smart kid".

I should have expounded on the basis of the question; Riso and Hudson’s enneagram podcast (the enneagram one description is approximately 5 minutes) stated this regarding the childhood of an E1:

As children, ones were good boys and good girls who learned to discipline and restrain themselves and postpone rewards until their work was done. They often disliked or distrusted authority figures who they usually saw as unjust or arbitrary or indifferent. As a result, young ones decided to take the issue of reward and punishment onto themselves. Their own consciences would be their guide, they were praised and rewarded for being adult and rational at an early age and may not have had a very happy or carefree childhood.​

Which is interesting as I would say it somewhat corresponds to your childhoods.

E9's are known for not wanting or having solid opinions; I have an opinion on pretty much everything and go out of my way to find one. They like keeping things open and free; I need things nailed down and locked in.

It's that difference that can create a problem. I suspect a lot of 9's would be put off by me. Some for "intensity" (though I don't consider myself that intense of a person, just a strong presence), but mostly for doing they kinds of things they don't want... The thing that drives me nuts the most is their sheer ambivalence to almost everything... In general 9's will either irritate me, bore me to death, and in rare cases anger me if their fence sitting infringes upon me by forcing inaction.

When I was an admin on the INFJforums one of my fellow admins was a 9w1... It was impossible for anyone to get mad at her or hate her. Can't say the same for myself.

I was curious if our perceptions of each other (E1, E9) were what I assumed (which it is). I’ve always respected ones for their self-discipline, rational decision-making and grounded nature. But, you’re right, ones do play the bad cop to the nines' good cop. I’ve seen ones make imperative decisions despite how undesirability to the populace, repeatedly, and stand by them. It’s a quality I’ve admired and desired but never tried to develop since I lack the tenacity and certitude. The irony is what I admire about ones is also what I dislike about them; I tend to keep E1s at a distance (IRL) because I’m usually in the average levels of the enneagram and we clash often due to their obstinacy and my passivity and detachment.

but then again, if a 9 is in a place where I'd need to give them advice, they'd probably ignore it.

Accurate. You know us well, there's really no type more stubborn than a disgruntled, dispassionate nine.