• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[Type 4] Oh my god I'm a self pres four

B

brainheart

Guest
I got the book The Complete Enneagram yesterday by Beatrice Chestnut. She's a follower of Naranjo. In her book she expands on his work and goes further in depth into the subtypes. It's a really insightful great read that I recommend to everyone who is interested in the enneagram. Anyway, I innocently started reading the self pres four description this morning. One and a half pages in I started wailing, and I mean wailing. I cried for at least half an hour, the hardest I've cried in years. I could barely breathe.

I am not a crier. I will want to cry and it doesn't happen. And this did it. It triggered something extremely deep within me that I have been avoiding, I guess.

Crap.


I will go into further detail about the four subtypes if people would like, but I would suggest just going out and getting the book. I checked it out at the library.
 
S

Sniffles

Guest
Interesting, will have to look at this. What are some of the main points addressed in the description for self-preservation types?
 

Qlip

Post Human Post
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
8,464
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Please do share. I believe I'm most likely an sp/sx. I'd like to hear what connected for you.
 
B

brainheart

Guest
[MENTION=4212]Peguy[/MENTION] and [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION], it's really long but I'll do my best. I think different things will resonate for different self pres fours. In other words, it's not all going to necessarily fit. But the things that fit... well, it ugh...


Self pres fours communicate their envy and suffering to others less than the other subtypes. They are more stoic and don't talk about their suffering much.

They strive to get what they long for. But whatever they get never feels like enough.

Less likely to communicate sensitivity, suffering, shame or envy even though they feel them just as deeply as the other fours. They swallow a lot without complaining. Endurance is a virtue.

Suffer in silence. This is how they think they will be redeemed and earn love. Make a virtue of toughing out difficulties without talking about them in the hopes that others will see this and admire them for it, thereby helping them to meet their needs. Bear a lot of suffering and frustration through internalization.

Very self-demanding. Develop an ability to do without. Test and challenge themselves. They don't allow themselves the experience of living in or from their fragility.

A humanitarian with an empathetic and nurturing disposition, self pres fours are sensitive to the needy. This is how they project their pain outward, addressing it through others' suffering instead of talking about their own. They try to take care of others' pain so they don't have to fully deal with their own suffering.

More masochistic than melodramatic. Masochism is the ego strategy for getting love. Devalue themselves in important ways. Want to be seen as strong and resilient. This stems from their childhood desire for their parents to see them as a person who doesn't complain, and is a good child because they don't ask for much.

They may make efforts to get what they need and want while simultaneously unconsciously working against themselves. (One form of masochism.) And so:

Impulsive/not impulsive; desire to be happy but then make themselves unhappy; focus on improving and dealing with problems/postpone actions that would make this happen; Wear self out by seeking and striving in areas they know they will fail, which will ensure the perpetuation of a cycle of effort and devaluation. Ambitious, but deny and work against ambitions.

May resemble a one or three in focus on self-sufficiency, autonomy, working hard, but will be more emotional, even if they don't express it externally. Also, they will thwart their own efforts vs actually achieving like the three would.

Can also look like a type seven because they express a need to be light. May display the high energy characteristics of sevens, and may have a need for fun/playfulness as an escape from having to do tough things all the time. May appear less melancholy for this reason than other fours, a little more sunny and lighthearted.
 
S

Sniffles

Guest
Thank you [MENTION=7140]brainheart[/MENTION]. Yes there's much I can very much relate to, especially the stoic aspect and the difficulty opening up to others about the deep pain I'm feeling. It's especially hard doing that out in public, where I feel utterly exposed and vulnerable. If I do open up it's usually one-on-one with somebody I can trust they will listen and understand. Even then, a certain level of trust and rapport has to be built up, so I become comfortable telling anybody about such. In part because there is a sense of shame of me feeling hurt or sad about something, when I think it shouldn't bother me but it does. So there's a feeling of embarrassment over how I'm feeling in it or itself.

I don't know how related this is, but a few impressions I got from reading what you post. I can understand how it could make you cry.
 
B

brainheart

Guest
Thank you. Yes there's much I can relate to, especially the stoic aspect and the difficulty opening up to others about the pain I'm feeling. It's especially hard doing that out in public, where I feel utterly exposed. If I do open up it's usually one-on-one with somebody I can trust or sense will listen and understand.

Yes, exactly. That's the only time that I do. Or on here, because none of you are real.
 

Qlip

Post Human Post
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
8,464
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
[MENTION=7140]brainheart[/MENTION] Oh yes, that's very powerful. I've read similar descriptions. Furthermore 4 sp/sxes can appear sx, because of the strange efforts they take to throw themselves in dangerous situations to test themselves, and for the measures they'll take to protect their visions, not necessarily their person.
 
B

brainheart

Guest
[MENTION=7140]brainheart[/MENTION] Oh yes, that's very powerful. I've read similar descriptions. Furthermore 4 sp/sxes can appear sx, because of the strange efforts they take to throw themselves in dangerous situations to test themselves, and for the measures they'll take to protect their visions, not necessarily their person.

Yes, which is likely why I thought I was sx/sp, even though I rarely make others suffer and always make myself do so.
 
S

Sniffles

Guest
Is there anything about Sp/So by any chance? Supposedly we're the most stoic(or strive to be the most stoic) of the self-preservation Fours.
 

cascadeco

New member
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
9,083
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Thanks for posting more details, [MENTION=7140]brainheart[/MENTION]. I enjoy reading more in-depth information on things like this. I think that since I have what I'll call an 'uncertain' reaction to the sp-dom descriptions, meaning, it doesn't really hit me as 'wham' at the center of my chest, doesn't really 'speak' to me, though I *understand* and can somewhat relate to elements of it, it must mean I'm accurately typed, in NOT being sp dom.

Anyway, thanks. :)
 
B

brainheart

Guest
[MENTION=4212]Peguy[/MENTION], no there aren't stacking descriptions, just individual instincts. To be brief, social fours lament and perceive themselves as less than others- they are victims. Sexual fours are competitive and act like they are better than others. Social fours display their suffering while sexual fours are more likely to make others suffer.
 
B

brainheart

Guest
Thanks for posting more details, [MENTION=7140]brainheart[/MENTION]. I enjoy reading more in-depth information on things like this. I think that since I have what I'll call an 'uncertain' reaction to the sp-dom descriptions, meaning, it doesn't really hit me as 'wham' at the center of my chest, doesn't really 'speak' to me, though I *understand* and can somewhat relate to elements of it, it must mean I'm accurately typed, in NOT being sp dom.

Anyway, thanks. :)

Yeah, that's the reaction I had while reading the other subtypes as well. I related to more of the sexual than the social, though. But with neither, no 'wham'.

I'll try to post the sexual and social later, but I need to get other stuff done now.
 

cascadeco

New member
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
9,083
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
[MENTION=4212]Peguy[/MENTION], no there aren't stacking descriptions, just individual instincts. To be brief, social fours lament and perceive themselves as less than others- they are victims. Sexual fours are competitive and act like they are better than others. Social fours display their suffering while sexual fours are more likely to make others suffer.

Ah, so-dom is accurate. :) Not a lovely description, and I honestly think I keep a lot of that in check, but I suppose none of the enneagram stuff in the end is that 'lovey'. It's just real/more raw.
 
S

Sniffles

Guest
[MENTION=4212]Peguy[/MENTION], no there aren't stacking descriptions, just individual instincts. To be brief, social fours lament and perceive themselves as less than others- they are victims. Sexual fours are competitive and act like they are better than others. Social fours display their suffering while sexual fours are more likely to make others suffer.

Ok thanks, I was just curious if there was more information on the matter. I was curious whether I could be so/sp; but the information presented here seems to point more towards Sp/So as I thought. :)
 
B

brainheart

Guest
Ah, so-dom is accurate. :) Not a lovely description, and I honestly think I keep a lot of that in check, but I suppose none of the enneagram stuff in the end is that 'lovey'. It's just real/more raw.

I see social fours as being sweet. There's something very endearing about them. But yes, enneagram is more real/raw, and I like that about it.
 

cascadeco

New member
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
9,083
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I see social fours as being sweet. There's something very endearing about them. But yes, enneagram is more real/raw, and I like that about it.

Ah, interesting. I've been called 'sweet' often enough for it to be more of a theme. :) Yes, same reason I like enneagram too. I think it's more helpful at working through and identifying core 'life issues', and I at least find it more impactful than mbti.

Edit: Also what I love about enneagram is how well it captures different 'flavors'/auras of a given type -- i.e. your summaries of so-dom vs sp-dom vs sx-dom really highlight some major differences between the three, and consequently how differently each can 'vibe'/come across.
 

Cloud of Thunder

New member
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
571
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4
[MENTION=4212]Peguy[/MENTION] and [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION], it's really long but I'll do my best. I think different things will resonate for different self pres fours. In other words, it's not all going to necessarily fit. But the things that fit... well, it ugh...


Self pres fours communicate their envy and suffering to others less than the other subtypes. They are more stoic and don't talk about their suffering much.

They strive to get what they long for. But whatever they get never feels like enough.

Less likely to communicate sensitivity, suffering, shame or envy even though they feel them just as deeply as the other fours. They swallow a lot without complaining. Endurance is a virtue.

Suffer in silence. This is how they think they will be redeemed and earn love. Make a virtue of toughing out difficulties without talking about them in the hopes that others will see this and admire them for it, thereby helping them to meet their needs. Bear a lot of suffering and frustration through internalization.

Very self-demanding. Develop an ability to do without. Test and challenge themselves. They don't allow themselves the experience of living in or from their fragility.

A humanitarian with an empathetic and nurturing disposition, self pres fours are sensitive to the needy. This is how they project their pain outward, addressing it through others' suffering instead of talking about their own. They try to take care of others' pain so they don't have to fully deal with their own suffering.

More masochistic than melodramatic. Masochism is the ego strategy for getting love. Devalue themselves in important ways. Want to be seen as strong and resilient. This stems from their childhood desire for their parents to see them as a person who doesn't complain, and is a good child because they don't ask for much.

They may make efforts to get what they need and want while simultaneously unconsciously working against themselves. (One form of masochism.) And so:

Impulsive/not impulsive; desire to be happy but then make themselves unhappy; focus on improving and dealing with problems/postpone actions that would make this happen; Wear self out by seeking and striving in areas they know they will fail, which will ensure the perpetuation of a cycle of effort and devaluation. Ambitious, but deny and work against ambitions.

May resemble a one or three in focus on self-sufficiency, autonomy, working hard, but will be more emotional, even if they don't express it externally. Also, they will thwart their own efforts vs actually achieving like the three would.

Can also look like a type seven because they express a need to be light. May display the high energy characteristics of sevens, and may have a need for fun/playfulness as an escape from having to do tough things all the time. May appear less melancholy for this reason than other fours, a little more sunny and lighthearted.
OMG, all of this applies to me. It all makes sense now. :D
 

Alea_iacta_est

New member
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
1,834
[MENTION=4212]Peguy[/MENTION] and [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION], it's really long but I'll do my best. I think different things will resonate for different self pres fours. In other words, it's not all going to necessarily fit. But the things that fit... well, it ugh...


Self pres fours communicate their envy and suffering to others less than the other subtypes. They are more stoic and don't talk about their suffering much.

They strive to get what they long for. But whatever they get never feels like enough.

Less likely to communicate sensitivity, suffering, shame or envy even though they feel them just as deeply as the other fours. They swallow a lot without complaining. Endurance is a virtue.

Suffer in silence. This is how they think they will be redeemed and earn love. Make a virtue of toughing out difficulties without talking about them in the hopes that others will see this and admire them for it, thereby helping them to meet their needs. Bear a lot of suffering and frustration through internalization.

Very self-demanding. Develop an ability to do without. Test and challenge themselves. They don't allow themselves the experience of living in or from their fragility.


A humanitarian with an empathetic and nurturing disposition, self pres fours are sensitive to the needy. This is how they project their pain outward, addressing it through others' suffering instead of talking about their own. They try to take care of others' pain so they don't have to fully deal with their own suffering.

More masochistic than melodramatic. Masochism is the ego strategy for getting love. Devalue themselves in important ways. Want to be seen as strong and resilient. This stems from their childhood desire for their parents to see them as a person who doesn't complain, and is a good child because they don't ask for much.

They may make efforts to get what they need and want while simultaneously unconsciously working against themselves. (One form of masochism.) And so:

Impulsive/not impulsive; desire to be happy but then make themselves unhappy; focus on improving and dealing with problems/postpone actions that would make this happen; Wear self out by seeking and striving in areas they know they will fail, which will ensure the perpetuation of a cycle of effort and devaluation. Ambitious, but deny and work against ambitions.


May resemble a one or three in focus on self-sufficiency, autonomy, working hard, but will be more emotional, even if they don't express it externally. Also, they will thwart their own efforts vs actually achieving like the three would.

Can also look like a type seven because they express a need to be light. May display the high energy characteristics of sevens, and may have a need for fun/playfulness as an escape from having to do tough things all the time. May appear less melancholy for this reason than other fours, a little more sunny and lighthearted.

Holy shit. Immediately doubts type (again). Out of my entire exploration of personality systems, this is literally the most perfect description I have ever resonated with. I must find this book.

EDIT: I have been assimilated.
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
7,626
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
This (or Naranjo's sp description) always solidifies my stacking as sp/sx.


After re-reading Maitri I was considering sx/sp again. I think her take is that the dominant instinctual type shows the most distortion of the fixation. Expansion on that idea is that the second instinct is pretty balanced & the third a blindspot. Going by that, I would be sx/sp. [MENTION=20856]grey_beard[/MENTION] , you are quite right about me having the most handle on sp stuff, although still more in a 4ish way than a practical one, and sx stuff is more obsessive & incurs the most obvious form of envy for me. I don't have a handle on it & am too focused, whereas I don't have a handle on so stuff due to lack of focus.

But then I always think - is that just being a 4?


This is absolutely not me though:
Can also look like a type seven because they express a need to be light. May display the high energy characteristics of sevens, and may have a need for fun/playfulness as an escape from having to do tough things all the time. May appear less melancholy for this reason than other fours, a little more sunny and lighthearted.

If not simply appearing aloof, I tend to look sour puss / haughty (sx type?) over sad & pitiful (so type?). I would've thought the cool/aloof bit was sp though. My playful side seems my last layer....
 
Top