User Tag List

First 678910 Last

Results 71 to 80 of 101

  1. #71
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    4w3 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LSI Se
    Posts
    645

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    To this day...the cast of Friends haunts my dreams/nightmares.
    Haha. THis is probably a good reason why I don't watch TV. :P I've never watched any tv all my life. My parents had a tv in every room except mine, and kept offering me old TVs but they werent worth the space they would occupy on my desk. I was a huge bookworm and music-geek, and later an internet geek, but never a TV person. Nothing against it, just couldn't get into it. The only reason I know what "friends" is , is from facebook and being around people etc.

    I have nightmares about the movie Alien which I saw when I was too young - when it comes out of her stomach :O and I used to have lots of nightmares of my house burning down. I also get chased.. monsters.. rejection (this is a huge one) - people having power over me. I've been shot and killed in a dream. I DIED IN A DREAM. I've had to fly out of big fires with children strapped to my back . I've saved children from the FBI. I've watched the person I was in love with drowning in a car and been unable to save him. Etc. etc

    I still have tremendously bad nightmares to this day, but some actually thrill me. In fact.. if I can clean up the typed version I sent my friend in a panic at 3am one day I will post it..
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

  2. #72
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEI Ni
    Posts
    7,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    I am NOT direct when I want someone's love… I really wish I were. But that's BECAUSE I want to be extraordinary… I want him to be on his knees for me; that is more important than having him RIGHT NOW. I want him to see me as something extraordinary, I want to win the "who cares about who less" competition, I want to have power..
    Hm....I can relate to this also... Not sure about "who cares less" competition, but I have some 2ish pride about not letting on my own desires. I require someone to come to me.... I don't relate to being competitive like 4 sx types are supposed to be. If I were to find myself in direct competition with someone, I think I go the sp-dom masochistic route & just step aside. It's partly because I feel ABOVE competing. Like I shouldn't have to. If someone can't see how "extraordinary" I am, then I don't want them. They deserve the ordinary, pathetic person vying after them. Yes, it's all pretty gross when you examine it up close....

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Has a 4-ish feel. In particular, the coping strategies having to longing and a desire to intensely connect with another has a very 4-ish feel to it. So, when you combine Sx with a type 5, you get a more 4-ish feel than the other 5 instinctual subtypes. Chestnut writes:


    Do the 4 Sp folks relate to the above description?
    It's pretty dry & flat to me still. If I'm sp 4, I do appear more calm outwardly, but internally things are much more tempestuous. And it leaks over. Close family & friends will describe me as temperamental still, and as a child I also got called hostile & angry. A few have said there's something "violent" about me. Yet, casual associates may think I'm very composed & perhaps aloof or slightly moody at worst.

    An ex-bf's mom (who I am still very close to) somewhat affectionately called me a "prima donna" once, so I guess I'm more obvious with the demanding sx side than I'd like to think (most 4s here, regardless of instinctual stacking, seem to think they suffer in silence; perhaps our self-perception is very off there).

    I think sx is not just longing to connect... it's almost like a toddler temper tantrum that reality hasn't given you the romance you desire. It's much more of an extreme frustration and it bubbles over in the demeanor of someone. I think 5s are somehow more.... complacent? Like they've resigned themselves a bit.
    Even if 4s say they've resigned themselves, they do so in a dramatic, angry way, and they often never stop mentioning it. It's because they really aren't contented with things as-is.


    Given all that, I still find myself a little dissatisfied with the 4 Sp description, because while I relate to a fair amount of it (although less than 5 Sx), it isn't clear to me how it arises inevitably from the combination of 4 and Sp (especially without a 5 wing being involved). It seems like the self-care/comfort/warm side of Sp is generally missing, leaving only the 5-ish parts (self-denial/storing up). I can see it being arguable that 4s don't feel like they deserve comfort and self-care, but why should the Sp instinct only distort in one direction for 4 Sp? Isn't it equally arguable that a 4 Sp should over focus on comfort and aesthetics? Or tend towards comfort eating? Or reflect an Sp fixation is other ways?
    I relate to the indulgent aspect of sp, but I don't know if I'd call it "self-care". When it's the first instinct, it's supposed to be distorted. It's not all warm & cozy.... Other authors describe sp 4s as being recklessly indulgent, and I DO think this relates to the sp 4 not wanting to burden others & becoming masochistic. If you read the description, they are self-sabotaging & perhaps due to some indulgences (with spending money or eating/not eating as ways to self-soothe, justified as some consolation for missing out otherwise, perhaps). The denial aspect is not the indulgence, it's in asking others for what they are missing & longing for, when the so type may do so in a whiny way & the sx angrily.
    I guess I find the descriptions complementary & not at all contradictory. Together, they provide a clearer picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Yes, if I look at myself outside of four (and at other non-Naranjo influenced books about four) I am without question a sx/sp. That's what's great about this book. She really drills in the fact that all fours idealize romantic relationships and have relationship problems because of their push/pull and off/on. Four, by it's nature, is sexual instinct. So I think in that way a sp/sx four is going to seem sx/sp to other types, and sp/so will probably seem sp/sx. Sx doms, meanwhile are like the super-uber sx doms.

    It's interesting because I've become really good friends with a sx/sp 4w5 and we have a lot in common, more than I've ever had with anyone else. We very much get each other. But if you look at us more closely, he really puts that sexual energy out there while I suppress it more. He's more a Baudelaire while I'm more a Van Gogh.
    Yeah, the sx 4 sounds so extreme, and I'm just not. Like I said in another post, I imagine Johnny Depp trashing hotel rooms & Marlon Brando riding his motorcycle down his school's hallway, and I know I'm not that outward acting. It seems there's a great entitlement to sx 4s, and being sp-dom, I cringe to think of myself that way at all. There's the pride in suffering quietly, feeling no one knows the extent of it all.


    I didn't transcribe that correctly. She said, "Interestingly, this subtype can also look like a type seven." In other words, Not all self pres fours will be like this but some will. That was the nail in the coffin for me, actually. I concluded my tritype had to be 471, if I were to play the tritype game (possibly 479, but that seemed unlikely). When she said it's a type that can look like seven and look like one- well, yes, that's me. Sometimes I'm reserved and aloof, sometimes I'm playful and goofy. (And yes, I also have the haughty sx thing going on, too.) I do feel like there is a lightness to me especially when it comes to my fiction writing. I have a tendency to go humorous, which has always frustrated me. I think it goes along with the not wanting to be seen as too difficult or too much of a complainer, as well as to protect myself. I pretty much never look sad and pitiful, like ever. Also, I'm adventurous and get a thrill from new experiences. I would put myself more as tenacious/reckless than just tenacious. That's another thing I really like about this description- how she talks about the tendency to work hard and then sabotage that work creating this endless loop of masochism. Totally me.
    My demeanor is far from 7ish, so I can't say I am "light" at all. I'm sullen without appearing sad, somehow. People never are concerned with depression for me. I think I may look more irritated or something; "sour puss" is really the best way to describe it. A discontent that's more snobby/angry than pitiful.

    But I like the kind of indulgences a 7 will pursue too, and sabotaging hard work is me as well. I can know what I need to do & just not be in the mood....and I 'll get right to the edge & then stress over pulling it off so as to pay the bills or whatever.

    I relate a lot to 4 so/sp (?) Morrissey, who also uses a lot of humor but is known for being whiny. But I am not known for such whininess in person. It's always more of a hostility & arrogance ascribed to me, unfortunately. I think Morrissey is a great example of a 4 who is likely sx last, yet he is still OBSESSED with romantic relationships; and he has obvious hang-ups with his sexuality. I relate to that obsessive aspect & some of his self-deprecation, but I realize I don't vocalize it so much.


    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Sexual Four:

    Inner motivation envy, manifests as competition. Don't feel consciously envious so much as competitive as a way of muting the pain associated with envy. If they can compete against someone they perceive as having more and win, then they feel better about themselves.

    Believe it's good to be the best. Don't care much about image management or being liked. It's better to be superior. Actively strive to show they are the best.

    Have an 'all or nothing' attitude when it comes to success. If success is not theirs, they are left with nothing. Generates feelings of hate.

    Usually arrogant despite having underlying sense of inferiority. If painfully feel misunderstood will adopt an arrogant attitude as overcompensation. Can be very elitist. May refuse to feel indebted to anyone. Any criticism or reproach is seen as an affront or disqualification.

    Refuse to suffer the pain brought about by envy. Reduce suffering by projecting the responsibility for meeting their needs onto others and minimizing others accomplishments in comparison with their own.

    Make others suffer because they have been made to suffer, so they want compensation. May seek to hurt or punish others to repudiate or minimize own pain.

    "Hurt people hurt people." Externalizing pain helps them ease their inner sense of inferiority. Refuse to suffer. Active insistence on their needs being validated and met. More shameless than shameful. Vocal about expressing needs. Rebel against shame connected to their desires.

    Get mad when others don't meet their needs, but their demanding nature causes others to avoid or reject them, then get angry about being rejected.

    More assertive and angrier than the other subtypes. Mad four vs sad social four. Expression of anger is their way of defending against painful feelings. When they unconsciously turn their pain into anger they don't have to feel their pain anymore.

    Feel justified in blaming others as the source for their deprivation and frustration, which serves as a distraction from their own role in their suffering and a plea for help and understanding.

    Can be the angriest personality among the enneagram types. May express envious anger as a way to establish or assert power when they feel inferior at a deeper level, which can be a way to manipulate situations to their advantage. Can be very impulsive. Want things immediately and have little tolerance for frustration.

    The competition and hate expressed by this four represents a deeper need to project their sense of suffering and inadequacy outward. "I've got to get what I need to convince myself that my needs aren't shameful and to feel better about myself with respect to others." It's a compensation for and a defense against the hurt they feel underneath.

    Like and need emotional intensity. Without intensity, everything can seem unbearably dull and boring. Can be very direct when want somebody's love, or can become "extraordinary"- make themselves seem special and attractive and superior in an effort to attract it. Tend to be more present and available in relationships because they don't deny or avoid many of the factors that can inhibit others relationally. However, at times it may prove difficult for them to maintain a loving attitude because they confuse sweetness and benevolence with being false or insincere.

    Most likely to be confused with eight or sexual two. Have easier access to anger like eights, but differ from eights in the wider range of emotions they regularly feel. Fours will show anger more often because they feel misunderstood and envious while an eight often doesn't 'need' to get angry. Can also look like Sexual Twos because can be seductive and aggressive in relationships. Twos, however, are more oriented toward pleasing others.
    None of these made me cry....

    But I went through this to see how much I relate.... I still feel like the sp resonates the most, but not by a huge margin.

    As I noted above, I was pegged temperamental, cantankerous, hostile, angry, etc, as a child, but only by those close to me. I was very well-behaved at school & always well-mannered & felt a lot of shame around peers, which led to me being extremely shy. I do remember being quite proud about being "odd". I liked weirdness & would sort of wear it as a badge of honor to be strange. Outwardly, I may have had a counter-shame, but it was not very "loud". I was frequently called "shameless" by my family though.

    The stuff about being best is interesting, but I experienced it more as 1ish & not in a competitive way. I felt like I needed to be perfect, and would seethe if any correction was made towards me, because I'd feel misunderstood. I didn't experience "being the best" as a conscious desire. It was more like I knew I was the best in many academic & artistic areas, and I'd have the grades & awards to prove it.

    I was quite arrogant about being smarter than my peers & felt I did not need to show up to class everyday since I did better than them anyway. I would be angry if someone else got a higher grade & I considered them "inferior". I had a contempt for over-achievers, because I felt I did well due to raw smarts & accomplished what they struggled to do with the flick of my wrist. And I certainly cared little if I was liked.... but I still cannot see myself as "competitive" in anyway that it's usually recognized. I think "elitist" fits better.

    When I first learned enneagram, I blanched at envy being for 4s - I could not see it or admit to it, but now I see it. I see how much of everything I do/feel extends from a place of envy (a resentful longing). But I definitely suppressed it & see how angry it made me. I'm not so angry anymore, but I feel the shame more painfully that I'm aware of the envy.

    But as a kid, I felt invalidated a lot & was ashamed to express any emotional needs. I hid feelings & was also called cold. And like I noted above, I would not compete (& still won't), but would rather purposely lose, just to have the "control". I feel like this has a masochistic flavor of the sp 4.

    This description is so much more openly demanding than I see myself, in short. But there's stuff in it I find harder to admit than the sp description because I don't like to see myself that way.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #73
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    MBTI
    Ne
    Enneagram
    468 sx/so
    Socionics
    :-( None
    Posts
    822

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Social fours are certain they are more flawed than others. They see the lives that other people have and they know they will never have that because they aren't good enough. And so they take on the role of the poor, flawed person as a way of getting attention and sympathy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    I don't really do this nearly as much as the other two. I can see shades of it maybes. Do you do it?
    I do identify with that, actually. I've always just seen that others are "normal" and can get along and form relationships and do fun and interesting things with their life...and for whatever reason, I'm just utterly incapable of that. I was just not endowed with the capacities to do that. This may have more to do with childhood rejection than core type, dunno, but I DO feel called out by this stuff when I read soc-4 descriptions.

    I know I also do the "poor me, everything's so screwed up and YOU should fix it; I won't say anything about it, I'll just look at you piteously" spiel. I HATE this about myself. It's disgusting. But to be fair, I've witnessed this behavior in both my mother (sp-9) and my grandfather (likely sp-1)--both of whom were 4-fixed, but not core 4s. I thought it was a family trait before I got into enneagram.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    I mistyped at 5w4 during the midst of a very severe trauma-reaction.

    ....

    The main reason I saw 8 before 4 when I really got into studying enneagram is because of my anger and tangible desire/lust, and also some of my actions during my trauma-reaction period..which I saw as "cold-hearted conquering" but it wasn't really that… it was more like.. push/pull, desperate need for affection, competitiveness, desirous longing etc. Probably a lot of it is just PTSD stuff though enneagram 4SX does make too much (uncanny) sense with what happened, and what I read in my diary from that period, it is a SX4 inferno of lust, envy, sadness, frustration and rage. :/ Anyway.. it can look very 8ish - or at least lusty and angry - at surface.
    I've heard through the grapevine...that it's been recorded with certain individuals that they can disintegrate and become wrapped around the mechanics of their secondary fix and then disintegrate, due to a trauma or sustained difficult circumstance. (So in your case, you'd get wrapped around the 8ness, and then disintegrate to 2.) I think Ichazo reported on that. It makes a hell of a lot of sense for those folks you just can't figure out. Wondering about your thoughts on that?

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Also, I don't buy the concept of socially introverted ENFPs. I know a lot of people will disagree with me on this but an introvert is an introvert and an extrovert is an extrovert.
    I buy it, unfortunately. I'm guaranteed Ne-dom, definitely have pegged down my Ti/Fe-use...I've tried to see it other ways, but it turns into a matter of me denying information blatantly in front of me...and I consider myself "introverted". I don't have friends, I don't strike up conversations, I spend most of my time alone.

    In a group, I inevitably get the "introvert" remarks--"You're too quiet", "Why aren't you talking? Aren't you having a good time?", "You need to learn to be more outgoing", and whatever other condescending idiocy most introverts allegedly are fated to suffer through.

    As I see it, I've made up my mind not to interact, and that's all there is to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    I've never related to any ENFP description, aside from the occasional Inferior-Si description which is a more realistic portrayal of problems that ENFPs actually have. As far as functions are concerned, mine are clear - though I could see a case for INFP, but I'm clearly Ne/Fi first in some order. Based on the relatively decent Te and shitty (and overwhelming) Si, and also that my creative function seems to be Fi… and IEE makes most sense in socionics, I stick with ENFP. But my personality is nothing like an ENFP description and on tests I always score INTJ.
    Yeah, I always score ISTP, and it actually does somewhat fit me. As a 4, I doubt you'd identify with the 7-biased ENFP internet descriptions. Unfortunately, they often describe "personality" rather than the characteristics your mind has.

    Worth noting that I actually DO fit the description of ENTP...when I read it the first time, I knew they were talking about me. Yes, I really am the conniving eccentric out to beat the system. I really do get petulant and have meltdowns around Si-stuff, I really do argue absurd things to people, and I really do "know" the future. I was floored.

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    @Sanjuro,

    You're right. I'm putting this out of context. I read the whole chapter on fours and identified with all of it, not just the self pres four description. Besides, I already was sure I was a four anyway. I wouldn't recommend people determine their type merely on these descriptions. Thanks for pointing this out because I meant to say something about it but forgot. For example, I would never mistype myself as a one or a three. And I think it's rare for sexual fours not to see themselves as fours as well. I actually think the most frequent mistypes would be self pres fours thinking they're fives (guilty of this), social fours thinking they're sixes (I think this happens a lot), and sexual fours thinking they're... well, fours- possibly other reactive types. Other mistypes happen, but I think in general this is how it works.
    Thanks.

    I think you're right. I have met sexual 4s who have mistyped, as 7s or 8s, but that seems to be quite rare.

    To play devil's advocate, though, I've always seen a lot of so/sp four in you. Back in the distant perC past when you typed yourself as six, I thought.. so/sp four. You are extremely self-referential and you talk about the damages incurred on you in the past a lot. That's got social four written all over it. But I'm not going to say you're wrong because obviously you know yourself better than I ever could.
    You're right, and you're one of the few folks who's actually had the gumption to say that to me. I typed as 6 largely due to failure of logic--I'm not a 4, 5, or 8, so...--and a lack of education. Having read, what, 15 books over the past year, I'm actually embarrassed FOR people on that site.

    Yeah, I dwell on my past a lot (see above) and am extremely self-referential. I'm dark, I'm stormy, I'm brooding, and I'm entirely too self-pitying. So I think soc/sp 4 could easily stand. Problem is, when I look into the psychological mechanics of the type itself, there's a major discrepency between this image that I have of myself here, and where my mind actually is on a daily basis.

    Well, that's the reason I didn't type for 15 years and the reason I don't bother listing a type now. I don't make any damn enneasense.

    Yes, she regurgitates a lot of Naranjo. I would call this book a more palatable version of Naranjo, minus all the outdated Freud stuff. But she does also add onto what he said, go into subtypes in greater detail, and give quite a bit of info on ways to improve. I like how she connects the types to Dante's Inferno (one of my absolute favorite books) and the Odyssey. I always like me some metaphors
    That part actually bothered me...it was "too cute". But it was definitely more palateable than Naranjo.

    Yeah, exactly. That's the point. I honestly don't give a rat's ass whether I'm sp/sx or sx/sp, but I know that the self pres description points out a lot of things I unconsciously do, real hurdles and frustrations in my life, and it's made me aware of them. It's been really cathartic.
    That's all that matters then. Glad you've reached some sort of peace.

  4. #74
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    4w3 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LSI Se
    Posts
    645

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Hm....I can relate to this also... Not sure about "who cares less" competition, but I have some 2ish pride about not letting on my own desires. I require someone to come to me.... I don't relate to being competitive like 4 sx types are supposed to be. If I were to find myself in direct competition with someone, I think I go the sp-dom masochistic route & just step aside. It's partly because I feel ABOVE competing. Like I shouldn't have to. If someone can't see how "extraordinary" I am, then I don't want them. They deserve the ordinary, pathetic person vying after them. Yes, it's all pretty gross when you examine it up close….
    I wrote a post about this recently on PerC, so I will paste the content of this part here - I think I worded it better:

    Since I'm good at communicating once I feel comfortable, nobody leaves me for that. I end up losing someone's interest PRIOR to that, when I fail to communicate because I'm too afraid of showing that vulnerability and being laughed at or rejected. Or losing 'power' in the relationship, as in, being the person who gives the control to the other person by 'liking them more'. I want them to be with me because they want me, because I am amazing, because they are crazy for me; not because of 'what I do for them' or 'how loyal I am.' So in the beginning, I can hold back affection or praise, compulsively; like it makes me feel too vulnerable and stripped to give them praise or raise them up when I feel so powerless. I also fear someone staying with me because they feel bad for me (I have a chronic illness and speak in a whisper too) so I am cautious about coming off needy in any way. I am actually not needy at all; just insecure about rejection at first. This is usually when I push someone away, rather than later when I open up.
    ^ This is what I mean by "power games." The problem is that my feelings are SO powerful and intense, and make me feel SO vulnerable, that I have to hold back. If I let someone see all of my intensity and obsession with them, and how weak I feel for them, I would end up being controlled or rejected on the simple basis of being "psycho obsessed" or something. My feelings don't STAY like that; over time if I know someone loves me I cool down. I wrote this, as part of the same post..

    - Do you worry about the eventuality of someone leaving you because you're not enough, or someone else is better?
    At first, yes. If he shows loyalty over time, and if I tell him about all my feelings, cry in front of him, feel comfortable enough to tell him that I'm unreasonable and all the ways in which I'm unreasonable, and hear his reassurance that despite that he still loves me - I get over it. All the bad stuff in my head gets hidden in the beginning (which renders me awkward, because I'm not saying what I'm really feeling) and then as trust builds, it comes to the surface. But then, after a while, once trust is earned, and I feel he knows my flaws and accepts and loves me along with them, this specific set of 'flaws' actually disappears and I am a very loyal, trusting girlfriend. I am not jealous, worried about rejection etc. Of course it might or might not work out, but I feel like it would be for 'real reasons' and most likely a 'mutual decision' because now he knows who I really am. I'm not worried so much about the eventuality, once I know I am accepted, loved, and seen.
    It's like.. if I can get past him knowing how incredibly intense I am, and we still have a friendship and loyalty and interest in each other intellectually & emotionally etc… I end up calming down. The longest relationship I've had is two years, which I realize isn't that long.. but I can safely say that after six months, I was much more calm, closer to a 'normal girlfriend' who loves her boyfriend, rather than obsessed, constantly feeling less than him, worrying that he'll find someone better, secretly competitive with other women in his past who I've never met, etc. We lived together for the second year, and it wasn't like "I'm bored, the intensity is gone!" - not like that whatsoever. I was happy, content, I trusted him and he trusted me, and this provided a totally different kind of intensity. So I don't think I do this "to hold on to the intensity" though that might be part of it. It's just the way I am, I am very over sensitive, to the point where I have to be tough in order to protect my own sensitivity. This is why I use the phrase "power games." I don't use it for evil, with the intention of "defeating" someone - it's more that I need to know he thinks I'm extraordinary, or else my insecurity, vulnerability & obsessiveness will turn him off. But I know that if he loves me for who I am.. if I am SEEN for who I am and accepted - that in fact, deep down, once I get past all of this, I can be a good girlfriend and a best friend, and inspiring.. and many good things. I just have such a hard time getting there because I'm so afraid in the beginning, of being "exposed" as an obsessed psycho. I get so obsessed that I find myself taking on parts of someone's essence. It can be subtle but it's like I'm breathing their air; I feel it inside me and it causes tremendous shame, that someone else might notice this, that he might realize… ugh.

    It's partly because I feel ABOVE competing. Like I shouldn't have to. If someone can't see how "extraordinary" I am, then I don't want them. They deserve the ordinary, pathetic person vying after them. Yes, it's all pretty gross when you examine it up close….
    Yup. I am like this too. And I realize it's gross too, but it's the way I have always been. I just shut off. If they want a wife they can have a wife; I am a volcano. ;D

    Yeah, the sx 4 sounds so extreme, and I'm just not. Like I said in another post, I imagine Johnny Depp trashing hotel rooms & Marlon Brando riding his motorcycle down his school's hallway, and I know I'm not that outward acting. It seems there's a great entitlement to sx 4s, and being sp-dom, I cringe to think of myself that way at all. There's the pride in suffering quietly, feeling no one knows the extent of it all.
    I hate thinking of myself this way too, but I know I have been this way in the past. Had I not been very humbled & forced to take care of myself because of a chronic illness - and also raised extremely well, I could see myself going down that path for life. I have done it in parts of my life. But my parents just understood me so well, encouraged my love for music and even rock and roll, didn't PUNISH me for using drugs but had realistic and accepting talks about the effects this had on them… gave me tons of independence without ever neglecting me… so on and so on… without this kind of upbringing I easily could have been like Johnny Depp trashing a hotel room. It's sad but true. And at times in my life I wasn't far from it; way too close for comfort. Sometimes its hard for me to believe I was that way, but I have ample photographs, diary entries, other art..exposing exactly what I was like, what I looked like. There's a huge part of me that actually longs for it, because it was "honest." I long to have nothing to lose, to be free to be the wild animal that I know I am; the beast who roamed free for years of my life. But then I like having something to lose; I feel overall more calm and accepting of myself, I have better friends, better relationship with family; I am capable of finding joy in little things unlike before when I was ALWAYS insatiably hungry…. this is why I worked so hard to get out of that lifestyle. But I can't help wondering when I look at my old pictures, vs. my perfect hard-working little self now.. I can't help wondering, "is this REALLY me, or was that wild vampiric animal really me?" I realize it's both.. and the vampire/animal can be expressed in art, and "I" can be the artist.. but sometimes it just isn't enough. It's hypocritical to say/ feel that I am one way, and live my life a different way.. isn't it? But then if it's real in the creative work, is that enough? Etc...
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

  5. #75
    brainheart
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I think sx is not just longing to connect... it's almost like a toddler temper tantrum that reality hasn't given you the romance you desire. It's much more of an extreme frustration and it bubbles over in the demeanor of someone.
    Yes.


    Yeah, the sx 4 sounds so extreme, and I'm just not. Like I said in another post, I imagine Johnny Depp trashing hotel rooms & Marlon Brando riding his motorcycle down his school's hallway, and I know I'm not that outward acting. It seems there's a great entitlement to sx 4s, and being sp-dom, I cringe to think of myself that way at all. There's the pride in suffering quietly, feeling no one knows the extent of it all.
    Oh so much to the bolded.

    People never are concerned with depression for me. I think I may look more irritated or something; "sour puss" is really the best way to describe it. A discontent that's more snobby/angry than pitiful.

    But I like the kind of indulgences a 7 will pursue too, and sabotaging hard work is me as well. I can know what I need to do & just not be in the mood....and I 'll get right to the edge & then stress over pulling it off so as to pay the bills or whatever.
    Yes. It's funny being someone who is bipolar and everyone is surprised by it, like they don't know what's going on inside me at all. That's where my pride comes in. I can hide it, look how tough I am! I can even hide it from psychiatrists! Meanwhile, I really wish they'd notice... And yes, that's how my self pres comes out the most, what you say in the last sentence.

    I think Morrissey is a great example of a 4 who is likely sx last, yet he is still OBSESSED with romantic relationships; and he has obvious hang-ups with his sexuality. I relate to that obsessive aspect & some of his self-deprecation, but I realize I don't vocalize it so much.
    Exactly. Have you ever read Proust? Very so/sp 4 and completely romantically obsessed, for thousands of pages.

    I'll address your sexual stuff later...

  6. #76
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    4w3 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LSI Se
    Posts
    645

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    I've heard through the grapevine...that it's been recorded with certain individuals that they can disintegrate and become wrapped around the mechanics of their secondary fix and then disintegrate, due to a trauma or sustained difficult circumstance. (So in your case, you'd get wrapped around the 8ness, and then disintegrate to 2.) I think Ichazo reported on that. It makes a hell of a lot of sense for those folks you just can't figure out. Wondering about your thoughts on that?
    Interesting. I have wondered about this myself. Part of me wonders if it was just the low side of 2, part of me wonders if it's an over-expression of SX4 issues, part of me wonders if tritype even exists, or if this was me indulging my tritype as you mention. I guess I'll have to publish parts of my old diary & change the names and let the enneagram analysts have at it .

    ((I'm probably a good example for this, since I'm a writer all my life, kept a diary faithfully well into my 20s, and was doing very well and beginning to live my hard-earned dreams when I got sick and lost everything, so I had a long way to fall and thus a very drastic trauma reaction. Also my parents are psychiatrists so I had the capacity to look inward in my diary even while it was happening. This is different from people who were traumatized by family from a young age and at that age, still trying to make their own way. Not claiming by ANY MEANS that I had it worse than them; I hate comparing traumas, but just saying that it might make a specific type of case study.))


    I do identify with that, actually. I've always just seen that others are "normal" and can get along and form relationships and do fun and interesting things with their life...and for whatever reason, I'm just utterly incapable of that. I was just not endowed with the capacities to do that. This may have more to do with childhood rejection than core type, dunno, but I DO feel called out by this stuff when I read soc-4 descriptions.

    I know I also do the "poor me, everything's so screwed up and YOU should fix it; I won't say anything about it, I'll just look at you piteously" spiel. I HATE this about myself. It's disgusting. But to be fair, I've witnessed this behavior in both my mother (sp-9) and my grandfather (likely sp-1)--both of whom were 4-fixed, but not core 4s. I thought it was a family trait before I got into enneagram.
    It's funny, I tend to blame myself for my failures, sometimes when they're not even my fault. Not sure whether thats 4ish or not but its the way I am. I have no problem with being angry at someone else, with or without blaming them - even if they weren't wrong. If I'm angry I'm angry. Doesn't mean I need to act on it, I'm just angry. In my old truama-diaries, I wrote many times: "Hate = Want, Hate = Want"… over and over. And then: "I HATE YOU." haha. So I was taking responsibility while still hating.

    I guess I can't feel bad for myself if I know that I do it to myself. However it's easy to get angry at myself for this.




    Even when I got sick and lost everything, I thought of myself as a monster. I knew that the world took everything from me, everything I worked hard for.. and I hated the world, but I STILL realized that I had control over my outlook. That if I worked hard enough, if I were strong enough, I could change it. But I didn't, because it wouldn't be honest. The honest truth was I wanted revenge on the world, and I didn't care about anything anymore except surviving and expressing myself. I fought too hard for my life to let survival go, but I had nothing else to lose but my life, and I was not AFRAID of death anymore, and therefore I could be fearless, shameless, naked, honest. The problem was it was dishonest because I am not an animal; humans have need for a purpose beyond just survival. I buried that, out of fear that everything that mattered to me would be lost. So I was a bare naked animal, and artistically I was a symbol of an animal, naked in my photos, cut up, bare, raw, dirty, exposed… but I was not a human with shame or guilt. I didn't have to feel guilty because the world fucked me, so I would fuck the world. I guess that is sort of 8ish? *shrug* but deep down this was a lie because I feel tremendous empathy and compassion, and that is part of who I really am. So eventually the "freedom" wasn't really free. It came at the cost of hardening and burying certain things that made me human and that made me "me." I don't see the point of being alive if I'm not expressing myself as honestly as I can, in or out of artwork. So I had to come to terms with who I really am. Who I became, the monster, was part of my honest process - but eventually I had to conquer it and allow my humanity to rise from the undead.
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

  7. #77
    brainheart
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    But I went through this to see how much I relate.... I still feel like the sp resonates the most, but not by a huge margin.

    As I noted above, I was pegged temperamental, cantankerous, hostile, angry, etc, as a child, but only by those close to me. I was very well-behaved at school & always well-mannered & felt a lot of shame around peers, which led to me being extremely shy. I do remember being quite proud about being "odd". I liked weirdness & would sort of wear it as a badge of honor to be strange. Outwardly, I may have had a counter-shame, but it was not very "loud". I was frequently called "shameless" by my family though.

    The stuff about being best is interesting, but I experienced it more as 1ish & not in a competitive way. I felt like I needed to be perfect, and would seethe if any correction was made towards me, because I'd feel misunderstood. I didn't experience "being the best" as a conscious desire. It was more like I knew I was the best in many academic & artistic areas, and I'd have the grades & awards to prove it.

    I was quite arrogant about being smarter than my peers & felt I did not need to show up to class everyday since I did better than them anyway. I would be angry if someone else got a higher grade & I considered them "inferior". I had a contempt for over-achievers, because I felt I did well due to raw smarts & accomplished what they struggled to do with the flick of my wrist. And I certainly cared little if I was liked.... but I still cannot see myself as "competitive" in anyway that it's usually recognized. I think "elitist" fits better.

    ....But as a kid, I felt invalidated a lot & was ashamed to express any emotional needs. I hid feelings & was also called cold. And like I noted above, I would not compete (& still won't), but would rather purposely lose, just to have the "control". I feel like this has a masochistic flavor of the sp 4.
    We were extremely similar kids. I think that's where the 'can be confused with three' comes from. I've always thought of myself as having more of a three wing when younger, but I wasn't doing it to achieve so much as just prove that I was better. (Ugh, conceited.) Interestingly, I had few friends and was bullied but I didn't go the, "I'm not good as everyone and I wish I could be friends with them" route, I went the "They're all dumb and I wouldn't want to be friends with any of them anyway" direction.

    And yes, I relate to what you say about purposely losing to have the control, and it being masochistic. It's like I'll start doing something that really matters to me, be on the right track, and it's weird... once I get acclaim and support from others and am 'progressing', I just stop. It feels like my motivation dies, even if it's something I want, and I think it's partially because now other people are tied into it, it feels less autonomous. And then I get to beat myself up for quitting, but I justify it to myself in some way because it's no longer "my" thing.

    This description is so much more openly demanding than I see myself, in short. But there's stuff in it I find harder to admit than the sp description because I don't like to see myself that way.
    Yeah, I don't know about myself. I know the self pres description hit me hard because of my sx/sp friend. There's always been this thing in the back of my head saying, "we're different" but I couldn't really figure it out. And that self pres description just nailed it. Honestly, I can be envious of his behavior. It can feel really out of control to me, but I wish I could openly express stuff as he does and not feel vulnerable. It feels so much more authentic. Yes, he alienates people more than I do, his life is more volatile, but he's not hiding himself either.

    I know I have a lot of the entitled quality that the sexual four has, but I'm also the youngest in a big family, and with that comes an element of expecting people to take care of the stuff you don't want to do. I think the self pres and sexual is a weird combination, but I suppose self pres and social would be as well. For some reason, though, it seems less so to me.

    Funnily, I can come on strong when I like someone. It's like I become 100% sexual instinct in that situation, it's weird. It feels scary to me, because I feel really out of control and vulnerable. But it's also exciting and feels reckless, so maybe a lot of it is the reckless quality of self pres after all. It really is a throw caution to the wind situation for me, like jumping into a big wave, knowing it will likely slam me into the shore. Actually, the more risky this sort of scenario is, the more reckless I tend to be.

  8. #78
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    9w1 sx/so
    Posts
    18,086

    Default

    Oh please expand on this!
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  9. #79
    brainheart
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_X View Post
    Oh please expand on this!
    Expand on what? Are you talking to me? Please tell me, oh cryptic Lady.


    @Animal, @Starry, @Sanjuro, when I talk about extroverts vs introverts, I don't think I'm talking about in the same terms as you are. I don't mean 'out there living it up with bunches of people and being really loud', it's more of a vibe. I guess it's picking up on the cognitive function more than anything, and it's something I did before I knew about Jung. It's just a feeling. Sorry for being so nebulous.

  10. #80
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    953 sp/so
    Posts
    5,708

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Expand on what? Are you talking to me? Please tell me, oh cryptic Lady.


    @Animal, @Starry, @Sanjuro, when I talk about extroverts vs introverts, I don't think I'm talking about in the same terms as you are. I don't mean 'out there living it up with bunches of people and being really loud', it's more of a vibe. I guess it's picking up on the cognitive function more than anything, and it's something I did before I knew about Jung. It's just a feeling. Sorry for being so nebulous.
    Extroversion means "oriented toward the object", as per the original definition of Jung. Is that what you mean?

    I "vibe" it as "not inwardly focused" or "requiring external input". Introversion, contrariwise, vibes for me as "lives inside one's head" or "is entertained by one's own mind/thoughts".
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

Similar Threads

  1. OH MY GOD
    By Critical Hit in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-04-2011, 02:10 AM
  2. OH MY GOD THE FORUM IS UP!!!!!
    By Totenkindly in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 149
    Last Post: 05-20-2011, 08:27 PM
  3. Oh my god, I'm so lucky to live in Seattle
    By InTheFlesh in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 09-17-2010, 09:53 AM
  4. OH MY GOD THERE IS A CRISIS!
    By Antimony in forum Home, Garden and Nature
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 08-26-2009, 09:28 PM
  5. OH MY GOD, WHAT?
    By Atomic Fiend in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 06-25-2009, 01:58 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO