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  1. #51
    brainheart
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    @Sanjuro,

    You're right. I'm putting this out of context. I read the whole chapter on fours and identified with all of it, not just the self pres four description. Besides, I already was sure I was a four anyway. I wouldn't recommend people determine their type merely on these descriptions. Thanks for pointing this out because I meant to say something about it but forgot. For example, I would never mistype myself as a one or a three. And I think it's rare for sexual fours not to see themselves as fours as well. I actually think the most frequent mistypes would be self pres fours thinking they're fives (guilty of this), social fours thinking they're sixes (I think this happens a lot), and sexual fours thinking they're... well, fours- possibly other reactive types. Other mistypes happen, but I think in general this is how it works.

    To play devil's advocate, though, I've always seen a lot of so/sp four in you. Back in the distant perC past when you typed yourself as six, I thought.. so/sp four. You are extremely self-referential and you talk about the damages incurred on you in the past a lot. That's got social four written all over it. But I'm not going to say you're wrong because obviously you know yourself better than I ever could.

    Yes, she regurgitates a lot of Naranjo. I would call this book a more palatable version of Naranjo, minus all the outdated Freud stuff. But she does also add onto what he said, go into subtypes in greater detail, and give quite a bit of info on ways to improve. I like how she connects the types to Dante's Inferno (one of my absolute favorite books) and the Odyssey. I always like me some metaphors

    ...because if this really helps you discover something about yourself, I say go for it.
    Yeah, exactly. That's the point. I honestly don't give a rat's ass whether I'm sp/sx or sx/sp, but I know that the self pres description points out a lot of things I unconsciously do, real hurdles and frustrations in my life, and it's made me aware of them. It's been really cathartic.

  2. #52
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    the confusion is understandable. Social 7s are weird as hell (they look more superego than 1s and 2s lol)
    DONT MAKE ME QUESTION MY TYPE AGAIN
    7w6 - 2w3 - 8w7 sx/so


  3. #53
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    @Sanjuro

    There are parts I don't agree with. I only highlighted the parts I do relate to… but with both Chestnut and Naranjo there are some issues….



    Sigh, [Animal tries to highlight the reasons she DOESNT relate to SX-4 and only ends up sounding more like an SX 4….]


    But really, in summary, I'm not competitive unless I want something. I don't "compete" - I stand out. I'm loyal and don't compete with friends, and I'm not jealous of my friends either. I'm not sadistic outside a period of trauma-reaction. I'm not demanding about my needs being met in an outright way; I'd rather have less needs and meet them myself. I am somewhat expressive about DESIRES, but mostly in private - I want the person to fulfill it because they want to, because they love me; not because they feel obligated. Being too expressive about my desires would leave me powerless.

    All in all, I think the description is overstated, but still accurate about what my core issues are. I'll have to go through and highlight the quotes that aren't quite right, and I had similar reactions to Naranjo. But there will never be a day when I read a good SX-4 description and don't cringe.
    I think what becomes problematic is when people get too detail oriented and don't go for the gist. It's easy to get caught up in descriptions versus looking at what's the heart of it.

    What I notice with the sexual instinct in myself is primarily internalized. Most people don't see it. (My guess is this is because it's my second instinct and gets subverted by the self pres desire to contain.) Internally, honestly, I do a lot of self talk of how I am better than others, how I deserve what they have, probably more than they do. That's how I'm competitive. It's because deep down I know I'm worse, but it's definitely a defense mechanism I switch to. Meanwhile, my self pres instinct is focused on what I should be doing to improve, to get myself out there, to create a body of work to show others, to leave a legacy... while at the same time I'll do all sorts of things unconsciously to make sure that doesn't happen, because it can't, I'm too flawed. And then when I get to my lowest, I'll get the slam of the social instinct where I am painfully, painfully aware that I am so much beneath others that I don't even deserve to live. I can be a little critical of social fours (sorry social fours, just being honest) because they seem kind of incompetent and whiny to me at times when they should just suck it up and deal with it but I know I could learn something from them, that it helps me to share these sort of emotions with others, scary as it is. That's why I feel compelled to share things on here. It's a way of working up to doing it with people in my life.

    I think it's easy to say 'I'm not' a certain way. I've done this for years. And that's why the good descriptions, the ones get to the marrow, make a person cringe or, in my case, cry (which is supposed to be really good for self pres fours, by the way). There is a lot of denial a person does about how they are.

    Self pres fours are long suffering because they deny themselves the right to let their feelings out for others to see. They see virtue in dealing with their problems themselves. Sharing/complaining to others makes them feel overly vulnerable and they must protect their feelings at all costs. But what would actually help would be to honestly display their feelings, it would ease their suffering and allow them to move on.

    Sexual fours feel angry envy because they feel like others have had it better than them, had access to things they never had. They feel the need to compete with others (even if it's just internally) because they need to prove to themselves that they are better than others, that these other people are only successful because of what life has given them. This anger can't help but come out. It can hurt other people. Other people perceive this as arrogance but the sexual four, deep down, knows that they act this way because they hurt deeply.

    Social fours are certain they are more flawed than others. They see the lives that other people have and they know they will never have that because they aren't good enough. And so they take on the role of the poor, flawed person as a way of getting attention and sympathy.
    Last edited by brainheart; 04-20-2014 at 12:31 AM.

  4. #54
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    brainheart...I swear...with how much I've seen you change type lately...I'm starting to wonder if you aren't a socially introverted ENFP.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Self pres fours are long suffering because they deny themselves the right to let their feelings out for others to see. They see virtue in dealing with their problems themselves. Sharing/complaining to others makes them feel overly vulnerable and they must protect their feelings at all costs. But what would actually help would be to honestly display their feelings, it would ease their suffering and allow them to move on.
    This is highly accurate. Whenever I wish to display my "suffering" (in quotations due to the lack of physical suffering and the fact that suffering is a heavily connotative word), I find myself telling myself not to, often leading me to actually repeat the phrase "Endure"* in my mind over and over. This magnifies tenfold when I have fallen in love with someone, I emotionally detach like a 5 so that the person I like cannot "read" me and possibly humiliate my intense emotions, leaving me to wallow in melodramatic suffering alone without reciprocation and the courage to open up. I've actually had a person I've liked remark on how stoic and unemotional I am, which of course only fueled the hidden fire.

  6. #56
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    I think what becomes problematic is when people get too detail oriented and don't go for the gist. It's easy to get caught up in descriptions versus looking at what's the heart of it.
    I agree with this. That's why looking at the heart of it makes me cringe even if I can go through the details and say "I'm not this or that." Also, you hit the nail on the head at least for me, with THIS:

    What I notice with the sexual instinct in myself is primarily internalized. Most people don't see it. (My guess is this is because it's my second instinct and gets subverted by the self pres desire to contain.) Internally, honestly, I do a lot of self talk of how I am better than others, how I deserve what they have, probably more than they do. That's how I'm competitive. It's because deep down I know I'm worse, but it's definitely a defense mechanism I switch to. Meanwhile, my self pres instinct is focused on what I should be doing to improve, to get myself out there, to create a body of work to show others, to leave a legacy... while at the same time I'll do all sorts of things unconsciously to make sure that doesn't happen, because it can't, I'm too flawed. And then when I get to my lowest, I'll get the slam of the social instinct where I am painfully, painfully aware that I am so much beneath others that I don't even deserve to live. I tend to scoff at social fours on a regular basis (sorry social fours, just being honest) because they seem kind of pathetic and whiny to me when they should just suck it up and deal with it but I know I could learn something from them, that it helps me to share these sort of emotions with others, scary as it is. That's why I feel compelled to share things on here. It's a way of working up to doing it with people in my life.
    That's a huge part of it. So much of this stays inside. It's all expressed in my work, diaries, or sometimes to VERY VERY close friends, SO or family.. but even the closest people to me, are not my diary. They don't see what I see. I know this description IS me, but so much of that is internal, and expressed ONLY in music and art and writing, or diaries that no one will ever see. That doesn't mean I don't know its there, sometimes lingering in the background, sometimes more calm, but sometimes burning me up.

    I think it's easy to say 'I'm not' a certain way. I've done this for years. And that's why the good descriptions, the ones get to the marrow, make a person cringe or, in my case, cry (which is supposed to be really good for self pres fours, by the way). There is a lot of denial a person does about how they are.
    Yeah. I read all of Naranjo - and at the time I had mistyped at 8 and denied some things, but reading the 4 segment made me cry and also felt uncomfortably familiar.

    Self pres fours are long suffering because they deny themselves the right to let their feelings out for others to see. They see virtue in dealing with their problems themselves. Sharing/complaining to others makes them feel overly vulnerable and they must protect their feelings at all costs. But what would actually help would be to honestly display their feelings, it would ease their suffering and allow them to move on.
    I have this issue too - which is why for a long time I thought Sx/Sp… but I see for many other reasons that Sp last is a real possibility, so I am not sure why I'm this way. It's like.. if I werent a 4 I might say Sx/So were more obvious, but as a 4 the associated SP instinct to 'swallow it' and deal with it myself is pretty strong, painfully so, to the point of causing problems in my relationships because THAT's not the place to put my feelings; MUSIC is the place for feelings to be expressed. (facepalm) .. I've gotten rejected or hurt EVERY TIME because I FAILED to express my feelings rather than, expressed too many feleings - a "problem" I've never had and which I wish I could have, if only once, to show myself that I finally allowed myself to lose control a little. I do express feelings but usually when I know the person is crazy for me and will accept it, etc. I am mostly a risk-taker and even reckless or dauntless but this is the one way in which I wish I could throw caution to the wind. I'd rather have a guy call me psycho for over-expressing, than what usually happens… they move on thinking I never cared in the first place, and I realize only too late that they DID love me all along and I pushed them away out of shame that I wasn't worthy of their love, and simply assumed they felt that way and never asked. :/

    Sexual fours feel angry envy because they feel like others have had it better than them, had access to things they never had. They feel the need to compete with others (even if it's just internally) because they need to prove to themselves that they are better than others, that these other people are only successful because of what life has given them. This anger can't help but come out. It can hurt other people. Other people perceive this as arrogance but the sexual four, deep down, knows that they act this way because they hurt deeply.
    On my typing thread years ago, I wrote that the thing I hate most in other people is wasted potential. This makes me infuriated, when people have tremendous potential and throw it all away. I feel like I had LESS potential and worked my ass off. For instance I perceive myself as being ugly when I was young, but working my ass off at music and theater. Then, after I was amazing at music and singing and doing well, I got a chronic illness that took my voice away and left me speaking in a whisper, robbing me of my chance to do my passion. I still , years later - produced , wrote, arranged my own record and fronted my band - and sang lead through my whisper. When I see great singers smoking for instance, do you know how pissed off I get? Things like this make me want to kill people. I am not sure how often I actually hurt them but I know I have said mean things about this to boyfriends who I felt were wasting their talent or potential (sometimes, coupled with them failing to appreciate my hard work despite my tremendous disadvantages)


    Social fours are certain they are more flawed than others. They see the lives that other people have and they know they will never have that because they aren't good enough. And so they take on the role of the poor, flawed person as a way of getting attention and sympathy.
    I don't really do this nearly as much as the other two. I can see shades of it maybes. Do you do it?
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

  7. #57
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    @Sanjuro,

    You're right. I'm putting this out of context. I read the whole chapter on fours and identified with all of it, not just the self pres four description. Besides, I already was sure I was a four anyway. I wouldn't recommend people determine their type merely on these descriptions. Thanks for pointing this out because I meant to say something about it but forgot. For example, I would never mistype myself as a one or a three. And I think it's rare for sexual fours not to see themselves as fours as well. I actually think the most frequent mistypes would be self pres fours thinking they're fives (guilty of this), social fours thinking they're sixes (I think this happens a lot), and sexual fours thinking they're... well, fours- possibly other reactive types. Other mistypes happen, but I think in general this is how it works.
    I mistyped at 5w4 during the midst of a very severe trauma-reaction. When I came back to enneagram I mistyped at 8w7 for a while. My 3 mistype doesn't really count because I was talked into it by a 3 who I had a major crush on and the mistype only lasted a few weeks until I changed to 8.

    The main reason I saw 8 before 4 when I really got into studying enneagram is because of my anger and tangible desire/lust, and also some of my actions during my trauma-reaction period..which I saw as "cold-hearted conquering" but it wasn't really that… it was more like.. push/pull, desperate need for affection, competitiveness, desirous longing etc. Probably a lot of it is just PTSD stuff though enneagram 4SX does make too much (uncanny) sense with what happened, and what I read in my diary from that period, it is a SX4 inferno of lust, envy, sadness, frustration and rage. :/ Anyway.. it can look very 8ish - or at least lusty and angry - at surface.
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

  8. #58
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    brainheart...I swear...with how much I've seen you change type lately...I'm starting to wonder if you aren't a socially introverted ENFP.
    I see what you're getting at but sp/sx vs sx/sp when they are pretty much equal isn't that much of a difference. This description of self pres knocked me off my chair.

    The tritype thing has to do with not getting tritype vs not getting myself.

    Also, I don't buy the concept of socially introverted ENFPs. I know a lot of people will disagree with me on this but an introvert is an introvert and an extrovert is an extrovert.

  9. #59
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Also, I don't buy the concept of socially introverted ENFPs. I know a lot of people will disagree with me on this but an introvert is an introvert and an extrovert is an extrovert.

    ^I don't want to go off topic...or take away from your thread...but you've got to explain this one to me now so I can better understand myself.

  10. #60
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    ^I don't want to go off topic...or take away from your thread...but you've got to explain this one to me now so I can better understand myself.
    Well, I'm INFP as all get out, so there's that. I very much feel my Fi strongly and always have. I was a total Fi kid, not a Ne kid. I feel like I have more in common with ISFPs than ENFPs. My ENXP friends in high school actually thought I was too boring, too normal because I didn't do the wacky Ne thing.

    INFPs get caught up in possibilities like ENFPs. My very much also an INFP friend goes through the whole confusion with tritypes as well. But our focus priority is always turned inward at how we feel about it. So when I read something like that self pres description and my Fi tells me, through my emotions, that it's right, I believe it.

    But onto what you said- Jung starts off his chapter on personality types by explaining the difference between introverts and extroverts. He says the differences are obvious and quite simple. I agree.

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