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  1. #31
    Senior Member Ghost's Avatar
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    Bolded text is awesome. Normal text I don't feel strongly about. Struck out text is stuff that is wrong for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Self pres fours communicate their envy and suffering to others less than the other subtypes. They are more stoic and don't talk about their suffering much.

    They strive to get what they long for. But whatever they get never feels like enough.

    Less likely to communicate sensitivity, suffering, shame or envy even though they feel them just as deeply as the other fours. They swallow a lot without complaining. Endurance is a virtue.

    Suffer in silence. This is how they think they will be redeemed and earn love. Make a virtue of toughing out difficulties without talking about them in the hopes that others will see this and admire them for it, thereby helping them to meet their needs. Bear a lot of suffering and frustration through internalization.

    Very self-demanding. Develop an ability to do without. Test and challenge themselves. They don't allow themselves the experience of living in or from their fragility.

    A humanitarian with an empathetic and nurturing disposition, self pres fours are sensitive to the needy. This is how they project their pain outward, addressing it through others' suffering instead of talking about their own. They try to take care of others' pain so they don't have to fully deal with their own suffering.

    More masochistic than melodramatic. Masochism is the ego strategy for getting love. [Inclined to cross that line out, but I don't know what an ego strategy is.] Devalue themselves in important ways. Want to be seen as strong and resilient. This stems from their childhood desire for their parents to see them as a person who doesn't complain, and is a good child because they don't ask for much.

    They may make efforts to get what they need and want while simultaneously unconsciously working against themselves. (One form of masochism.) And so:

    Impulsive/not impulsive; desire to be happy but then make themselves unhappy; focus on improving and dealing with problems/postpone actions that would make this happen; Wear self out by seeking and striving in areas they know they will fail, which will ensure the perpetuation of a cycle of effort and devaluation. Ambitious, but deny and work against ambitions.

    May resemble a one or three in focus on self-sufficiency, autonomy, working hard, but will be more emotional, even if they don't express it externally. Also, they will thwart their own efforts vs actually achieving like the three would.

    Can also look like a type seven because they express a need to be light. May display the high energy characteristics of sevens, and may have a need for fun/playfulness as an escape from having to do tough things all the time. May appear less melancholy for this reason than other fours, a little more sunny and lighthearted.
    The idea that someone would see my quiet suffering and admire me for it bothers me. If anything, I'd rather people don't realize what's going on because I'd feel vulnerable and humiliated that anyone knew I was so affected, so easily laid up by stupid things.

    Those sentences about being impulsive and not impulsive, focusing on improvement but delaying it, and ambition are ridiculously on the mark for me. I never liked those Dauntless Four descriptions. This one is much better.

    Thanks for posting these, @brainheart. They're definitely interesting.
    Last edited by Ghost; 04-19-2014 at 04:51 PM. Reason: fixing stuff

  2. #32
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Thanks again @brainheart for posting the info.

    Yeah, even though there are aspects of the so-dom description I don't quite relate to (they seem extreme to me, but perhaps when I'm least healthy I'm more like what it says), I think it definitely gets to the root of my main issues/struggles, so am settled on it being my dominant.

    I don't have a good sense of assessing my secondary. BUT, maybe like you said about how you would be sx-dom if you were anything but a 4 (i.e., the essence of 4 has quite a lot of sx element to it in the first place), maybe that's why I feel like I identify with sx descriptions as tied to *other* e-types, but, for the sx description for 4 in particular, don't know that it exactly fits me. So I lean towards so/sp for me as a 4, as the sx description for 4 doesn't really ring true (I don't think) w/ how I engage/react irl.
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  3. #33
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    The idea that someone would see my quiet suffering and admire me for it bothers me. If anything, I'd rather people don't realize what's going on because I'd feel vulnerable and humiliated that anyone knew I was so affected, so easily laid up by stupid things.
    I'm with you on this. Maybe that's the sx second talking?

    That sentences about being impulsive and not impulsive, focusing on improvement but delaying it, and ambition are ridiculously on the mark for me.
    Yeah, this is huge for me too. Probably the biggest thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post

    I don't have a good sense of assessing my secondary. BUT, maybe like you said about how you would be sx-dom if you were anything but a 4 (i.e., the essence of 4 has quite a lot of sx element to it in the first place), maybe that's why I feel like I identify with sx descriptions as tied to *other* e-types, but, for the sx description for 4 in particular, don't know that it exactly fits me. So I lean towards so/sp for me as a 4, as the sx description for 4 doesn't really ring true (I don't think) w/ how I engage/react irl.
    Yeah, that would make think so/sp for you as well

  4. #34
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    It does seem to be a problem with the instinctual subtypes is that they have resonances with particular enneagram types. This seems particularly problematic with Sx & Sp and 5 & 4, given that 4 Sp and 5 Sx are both "counter types" (in Chestnut's view) and have qualities that make them more similar to their neighboring enneagram type.

    Still, given that, the 4 Sp description doesn't sound particularly "Sp-ish", except in so far as basic enneagram needs take a back seat to more practical survival.

    So when look at an Sp summary:

    Quote Originally Posted by 16types
    Summary of SP instinct:
    primary concerns - physical safety, comfort, and well-being; securing an orderly and aesthetically pleasing way of life (food, clothing, money, housing, andphysical health)
    primary focus - security, comfort, and well-being of the environment (lighting, temperature, comfortable furniture, aesthetics, food quality)
    primary ambition - using practicality and financial sense to create a secure environment in the home and workplace (paying bills, acquiring skills to ensure the orderly flow of life)
    primary stresses - money, sustenance (how they will get food, when it will come, if they will like it, if it fits their diet)
    coping methods (unhealthy) - over-stocking, overbuying, overeating, overpurging, oversleeping, undersleeping, overindulging in aesthetics or comfort foods, mistreatment of comfort and security as is skewed by the secondary instinct
    So, it seem like the 4 Sp description doesn't really hit on a lot of the indulgent aspects, but more on the "self-denial" and "stocking up" parts. (Which are the most 5-ish parts of the Sp description.)

    Conversely, the Sx description:

    Quote Originally Posted by 16types
    Summary of SX instinct:
    primary concern - intense experiences, connections, and contacts, wide-ranging and exploratory, in order to find something to "complete" them inside (sky diving, deep conversations, exciting movies)
    primary focus - people and attractions promising intense energy and charge
    primary ambition - looking outside themselves for the person or situation that will complete them, and then obsessing over that completing element
    primary stresses - lack of intense mental or emotional stimulation, lack of an intense connection or experience
    coping methods (unhealthy) - scattered attention, lack of focus, sexual promiscuity, intensely avoiding intense experiences and connections with a fearful and dysfunctional attitude toward sex, intimacy, and other intense "completing" experiences, as is skewed by the secondary instinct
    Has a 4-ish feel. In particular, the coping strategies having to longing and a desire to intensely connect with another has a very 4-ish feel to it. So, when you combine Sx with a type 5, you get a more 4-ish feel than the other 5 instinctual subtypes. Chestnut writes:

    Quote Originally Posted by CompleteEnneagram
    The Sexual Five: “Confidence” (Countertype) In the Sexual Five, avarice is expressed through an ongoing search for a connection that will satisfy their need for an experience of the most perfect, safest, and most satisfying (idealized) union. This Five may look like the other two Five subtypes on the outside, having all the regular Five inhibitions and introversion in the area of relationship, but the Sexual Five places a special value on one-to-one or intimate connections.

    [...]

    While Social and Self-Preservation Fives are more removed from their emotions, the Sexual Five is intense, romantic, and more emotionally sensitive. This Five suffers more, resembles the Four more, and has more overt desires. This is the countertype among the Fives. It may not be completely obvious from the outside, however—they may seem very much like other Fives until you touch their romantic spot and inspire their romantic feelings.
    Later, the Chestnut tries to draw a bit of a contrast between 5sx and 4s:

    Quote Originally Posted by CompleteEnneagram
    Some Sexual Fives say that their search for an ultimate kind of connection does not only center on relationships with a lover or life partner. One Five said he related to the idea of “emotional promiscuity,” saying, “I want ultimate contact with a lot of people,” one at a time. And some Fives with this subtype report that although they feel guarded in the face of too much emotional intensity, they have a deep desire for intimacy with a trusted few. One Five with this subtype described especially appreciating the experience of “clicking” with someone—the feeling of having chemistry with another person—saying that when he felt this he could become infatuated very quickly. Although the Sexual Five may look like a Type Four, this Five is still quite Five-ish, so is not likely to be mistaken for a Four. And while this subtype is the Five countertype and seeks to manifest an ideal of intimacy, it may be hard to discern the difference between this Five and the other two Fives, as all of the Five subtypes experience a need to withdraw. However, This Five has a need to find a special relationship that will provide both safety and an ultimate kind of love.
    Do the 4 Sp folks relate to the above description?


    Given all that, I still find myself a little dissatisfied with the 4 Sp description, because while I relate to a fair amount of it (although less than 5 Sx), it isn't clear to me how it arises inevitably from the combination of 4 and Sp (especially without a 5 wing being involved). It seems like the self-care/comfort/warm side of Sp is generally missing, leaving only the 5-ish parts (self-denial/storing up). I can see it being arguable that 4s don't feel like they deserve comfort and self-care, but why should the Sp instinct only distort in one direction for 4 Sp? Isn't it equally arguable that a 4 Sp should over focus on comfort and aesthetics? Or tend towards comfort eating? Or reflect an Sp fixation is other ways?

    I found Chestnut's 5 Sx description comes across as more inevitable, since there is an inherent tension between the Sx prime concern, and a the 5 defense mechanisms, so there's not much of an issue of Sx having qualities that would tend to reinforce aspects of 5-ish-ness.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    I got the book The Complete Enneagram yesterday by Beatrice Chestnut. She's a follower of Naranjo. In her book she expands on his work and goes further in depth into the subtypes. It's a really insightful great read that I recommend to everyone who is interested in the enneagram. Anyway, I innocently started reading the self pres four description this morning. One and a half pages in I started wailing, and I mean wailing. I cried for at least half an hour, the hardest I've cried in years. I could barely breathe.

    I am not a crier. I will want to cry and it doesn't happen. And this did it. It triggered something extremely deep within me that I have been avoiding, I guess.

    Crap.


    I will go into further detail about the four subtypes if people would like, but I would suggest just going out and getting the book. I checked it out at the library.
    I shall seek it out.
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  6. #36
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Given all that, I still find myself a little dissatisfied with the 4 Sp description, because while I relate to a fair amount of it (although less than 5 Sx), it isn't clear to me how it arises inevitably from the combination of 4 and Sp (especially without a 5 wing being involved). It seems like the self-care/comfort/warm side of Sp is generally missing, leaving only the 5-ish parts (self-denial/storing up). I can see it being arguable that 4s don't feel like they deserve comfort and self-care, but why should the Sp instinct only distort in one direction for 4 Sp? Isn't it equally arguable that a 4 Sp should over focus on comfort and aesthetics? Or tend towards comfort eating? Or reflect an Sp fixation is other ways?
    I've been on the fence for a while about being sx, I've almost switched my status multiple times in the last few months. Not being entirely sure, the best I can do is identify my own SP instincts, wherever they may lie. When I think of protecting myself, I think of it as more active, procuring what I need to be who I want to be, not who I am. It's tied up in image.

    Those needed things are often skills. My comfort comes in knowing that I can deal with most anything, I can be somewhat obsessed with it. I actually feel a little sigh of relief when something bad happens to me... like for instance, I was assaulted in the street last week. Now I know I can take a punch coming out of nowhere, and now I know to look for it in the future. It makes me feel empowered to experience and thus dismiss things like that in pursuit of whatever it is that I wish for myself.

    Besides feeling relatively safe in dodgy situations, I can also rebuild a carburetor, sharpen anything that needs to be sharpened, drive stick badly even though I've never actually had a need to, I cook well. I always carry a strangely complete life-kit with me, something that starts a fire, something sharp, paper, pencil, camera. My kit used to be more extensive, but I've paired it down.

    I can only really associate this level of needing to feel prepared with an sp instinct. And I often feel the only way to be prepared to protect what I want to be is to get past myself and my immediate needs.

  7. #37
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    I got the book The Complete Enneagram yesterday by Beatrice Chestnut. She's a follower of Naranjo. In her book she expands on his work and goes further in depth into the subtypes. It's a really insightful great read that I recommend to everyone who is interested in the enneagram. Anyway, I innocently started reading the self pres four description this morning. One and a half pages in I started wailing, and I mean wailing. I cried for at least half an hour, the hardest I've cried in years. I could barely breathe.
    I am not a crier. I will want to cry and it doesn't happen. And this did it. It triggered something extremely deep within me that I have been avoiding, I guess.
    Crap.
    I will go into further detail about the four subtypes if people would like, but I would suggest just going out and getting the book. I checked it out at the library.
    I've been wanting to get my hands on that book for awhile. congratulations on finding your type =)
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  8. #38
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I've been wanting to get my hands on that book for awhile. congratulations on finding your type =)
    Hey thanks It also made me realize that I'm married to a so/sx (maybe even sx/so?) 7w6 not a so/sx 6w7, which shined a light on a lot of things.

    It's a good book.

  9. #39
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Hey thanks It also made me realize that I'm married to a so/sx (maybe even sx/so?) 7w6 not a so/sx 6w7, which shined a light on a lot of things.
    It's a good book.
    the confusion is understandable. Social 7s are weird as hell (they look more superego than 1s and 2s lol)
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  10. #40
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    @Peguy, no there aren't stacking descriptions, just individual instincts. To be brief, social fours lament and perceive themselves as less than others- they are victims. Sexual fours are competitive and act like they are better than others. Social fours display their suffering while sexual fours are more likely to make others suffer.
    I read through this thread starting on page 1. After reading your long post about SP 4's I thought, Hmm, some of this sounds a lot like me. Then I read this one sentence and my chest hurt. I still feel pain in my chest a few minutes later. It makes me sick that I do this, but I was recently speaking to a social 4 from PerC who was saying until she spoke to me in private, she thought i had such a big ego/ was fake. once she got to know me well privately, she saw the 4 in a very blaring way, but she was kind and brave enough to explain why others might see me as 7ish or 8ish if they don't know me. This bothers me - not because I have a problem with 7s or 8s (in fact thats flattering) but because I hate that I'm "different" in private vs public, or that it requires trust for me to stop acting like a narcissistic asshole. I want people to see me for who I REALLY am, and I want to think of myself as honest and completely shameless; absolutely myself. But I'm not. Part of myself… IS this competitiveness. I'd be fake if I DIDNT behave this way. But I also know that it's not the whole of me, that I really can be very vulnerable and sentimental. So why is that so hard to get to? I want to wear my heart on my sleeve- what is my problem??!

    I know she's right. I know how I act. I was unable to explain why, but I told her she was right, and reading this one sentence HURTS because I know its true. I'm definitely correctly typed at SX as much as I fucking hate it and SP-4 is closer to my ideal self (or maybe Sp3, but if we are talking about 4..)

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    I see social fours as being sweet. There's something very endearing about them. But yes, enneagram is more real/raw, and I like that about it.
    Yeah, I can agree with this. The one I met on perc just reawakens my childhood for how sweet she is. It's beautiful =)

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Yeah, same with me and sp and sx. I'd say whichever one provokes the stronger reaction is the lead.
    Bahaha. I'm scared to read the longer description for SX that you posted but I will.. *deep breath*
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