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  1. #21
    Senior Member autumnandtherain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    @Peguy and @Qlip, it's really long but I'll do my best. I think different things will resonate for different self pres fours. In other words, it's not all going to necessarily fit. But the things that fit... well, it ugh...


    Self pres fours communicate their envy and suffering to others less than the other subtypes. They are more stoic and don't talk about their suffering much.

    They strive to get what they long for. But whatever they get never feels like enough.

    Less likely to communicate sensitivity, suffering, shame or envy even though they feel them just as deeply as the other fours. They swallow a lot without complaining. Endurance is a virtue.

    Suffer in silence. This is how they think they will be redeemed and earn love. Make a virtue of toughing out difficulties without talking about them in the hopes that others will see this and admire them for it, thereby helping them to meet their needs. Bear a lot of suffering and frustration through internalization.

    Very self-demanding. Develop an ability to do without. Test and challenge themselves. They don't allow themselves the experience of living in or from their fragility.

    A humanitarian with an empathetic and nurturing disposition, self pres fours are sensitive to the needy. This is how they project their pain outward, addressing it through others' suffering instead of talking about their own. They try to take care of others' pain so they don't have to fully deal with their own suffering.

    More masochistic than melodramatic. Masochism is the ego strategy for getting love. Devalue themselves in important ways. Want to be seen as strong and resilient. This stems from their childhood desire for their parents to see them as a person who doesn't complain, and is a good child because they don't ask for much.

    They may make efforts to get what they need and want while simultaneously unconsciously working against themselves. (One form of masochism.) And so:

    Impulsive/not impulsive; desire to be happy but then make themselves unhappy; focus on improving and dealing with problems/postpone actions that would make this happen; Wear self out by seeking and striving in areas they know they will fail, which will ensure the perpetuation of a cycle of effort and devaluation. Ambitious, but deny and work against ambitions.

    May resemble a one or three in focus on self-sufficiency, autonomy, working hard, but will be more emotional, even if they don't express it externally. Also, they will thwart their own efforts vs actually achieving like the three would.

    Can also look like a type seven because they express a need to be light. May display the high energy characteristics of sevens, and may have a need for fun/playfulness as an escape from having to do tough things all the time. May appear less melancholy for this reason than other fours, a little more sunny and lighthearted.
    Interesting. I relate to a lot of this. I'm not entirely convinced yet that I am a self-pres four, but it seems like my most likely type right now. I especially relate to the part about wanting to seem like a good child who didn't ask for much.

    It's proving to be a problem for me now when I need or want to open up to people though, because I don't want to "burden" them.

  2. #22
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    I'm curious about the social description now. There are descriptions of so four as openly sensitive, and then there are those of the social critic. I never see a reconciliation of these two very different images attempted in a single description.
    4w3 6w5 1w2 sx/sp ISFP

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  3. #23
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This (or Naranjo's sp description) always solidifies my stacking as sp/sx.


    After re-reading Maitri I was considering sx/sp again. I think her take is that the dominant instinctual type shows the most distortion of the fixation. Expansion on that idea is that the second instinct is pretty balanced & the third a blindspot. Going by that, I would be sx/sp. @grey_beard , you are quite right about me having the most handle on sp stuff, although still more in a 4ish way than a practical one, and sx stuff is more obsessive & incurs the most obvious form of envy for me. I don't have a handle on it & am too focused, whereas I don't have a handle on so stuff due to lack of focus.

    But then I always think - is that just being a 4?
    Yes, if I look at myself outside of four (and at other non-Naranjo influenced books about four) I am without question a sx/sp. That's what's great about this book. She really drills in the fact that all fours idealize romantic relationships and have relationship problems because of their push/pull and off/on. Four, by it's nature, is sexual instinct. So I think in that way a sp/sx four is going to seem sx/sp to other types, and sp/so will probably seem sp/sx. Sx doms, meanwhile are like the super-uber sx doms.

    It's interesting because I've become really good friends with a sx/sp 4w5 and we have a lot in common, more than I've ever had with anyone else. We very much get each other. But if you look at us more closely, he really puts that sexual energy out there while I suppress it more. He's more a Baudelaire while I'm more a Van Gogh.


    This is absolutely not me though: (seven quote)

    If not simply appearing aloof, I tend to look sour puss / haughty (sx type?) over sad & pitiful (so type?). I would've thought the cool/aloof bit was sp though. My playful side seems my last layer....
    I didn't transcribe that correctly. She said, "Interestingly, this subtype can also look like a type seven." In other words, Not all self pres fours will be like this but some will. That was the nail in the coffin for me, actually. I concluded my tritype had to be 471, if I were to play the tritype game (possibly 479, but that seemed unlikely). When she said it's a type that can look like seven and look like one- well, yes, that's me. Sometimes I'm reserved and aloof, sometimes I'm playful and goofy. (And yes, I also have the haughty sx thing going on, too.) I do feel like there is a lightness to me especially when it comes to my fiction writing. I have a tendency to go humorous, which has always frustrated me. I think it goes along with the not wanting to be seen as too difficult or too much of a complainer, as well as to protect myself. I pretty much never look sad and pitiful, like ever. Also, I'm adventurous and get a thrill from new experiences. I would put myself more as tenacious/reckless than just tenacious. That's another thing I really like about this description- how she talks about the tendency to work hard and then sabotage that work creating this endless loop of masochism. Totally me.


    Quote Originally Posted by autumnandtherain View Post
    It's proving to be a problem for me now when I need or want to open up to people though, because I don't want to "burden" them.
    Yes, this is a big hurdle for me as well. It's really frustrating. I even do this with therapists and psychiatrists. I also think it's because self pres fours focus more on competency than other fours. I hate the idea of looking like I can't take care of myself and do things myself. Asking for help feels awful to me, like the worst possible thing. Realizing that I had a mental illness and would benefit from medication, that I couldn't suck it up and do it alone was a huge growing point for me in my life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Holy shit. Immediately doubts type (again). Out of my entire exploration of personality systems, this is literally the most perfect description I have ever resonated with. I must find this book.
    Yeah. Same here. I mean, it made me cry for a half hour...

    Quote Originally Posted by Misty View Post
    I'm curious about the social description now. There are descriptions of so four as openly sensitive, and then there are those of the social critic. I never see a reconciliation of these two very different images attempted in a single description.
    @Misty, I'm wondering if these variances have more to do with instinct stacking than the pure instinct. Yes, it's described as hypersensitive in this book. I'll write it out here in a bit.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    I think different things will resonate for different self pres fours. In other words, it's not all going to necessarily fit.
    most all of it fits for me, and some was actually REALLY helpful to realize as it relates to stuff in my life now. thank you!

  5. #25
    Ginkgo
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    Ugh, now I need to read this book.

    Glad you found some closure, @brainheart.

  6. #26
    brainheart
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    Here's more from the self pres four description. Excerpts of a quote from a self pres four:

    It wasn't okay to express emotions when growing up- the phrase I internalized from my childhood was, "Just suck it up and move on."

    I've always had a stubborn streak, as if I'm the only one who knows how to do something right.

    One day when I was thinking of someone I admired and how I came up short by comparison, I heard my internal voice say "You're not good enough." Then I knew I was a Four.

    It seems like a waste of time not to be doing or accomplishing something. Even now when I feel my feelings, I catch myself trying to figure out what I can DO with them.

    I also see the Reckless/Dauntless showing up in my behavior. In a way that seems counter to "self preservation" I have a penchant for spending money to buy fine things and help others out, sometimes more money than I make. It's like I get this reckless feeling that money will always be there, so why not spend it on what I love? Plus, I tend to make snap decisions without really thinking it through. For instance, I left my job of 18 years and my 20 year marriage within a month of each other.

  7. #27
    brainheart
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    Social four:

    Appears more emotionally sensitive, feels things deeply, suffers more than most people. Want others to see their suffering. The hope is if others see it they might be forgiven for their failures and deficiencies and loved unconditionally.

    Lament too much and often put themselves in the victim role. Too attached to the causes of their suffering.

    Envy fuels a focus on shame and suffering by providing a constant source of pain- the fact that others have what they want. However, their suffering also makes them unique and special- kind of seduce others through suffering.

    The way to happiness is through tears. They attract the help of others by expressing their dissatisfaction. Will rationalize their attachment to suffering instead of doing something about it. Depend too much on their needs being fulfilled by others. If you convey the intensity of your need in painful enough terms, someone will finally come to your aid and fulfill that need.

    Envy motivates social fours to focus on their emotional dissatisfaction and internal lack. There is a sense of comfort and familiarity in suffering, and the hope that their suffering will redeem them.

    Central issue: suffering and inferiority. Need to self abase and self recriminate, to turn against oneself, to self weaken. Compare self to others and come up in the lowest position.

    Others may think of them, "what's wrong with you is that you think there's something wrong with you." May actually be competent, attractive, and intelligent, but focus on and identify strongly with suffering and sense of deficiency.

    Feel a sense of shame about their wants and needs. Desire makes them feel guilty. Feel guilty for any wish. Too shy to express desires except through the display of suffering. Don't feel entitled to have their needs met but at the same time feel the world is against them or that no one gives them what they want or need.

    Don't compete with others. Instead compare self to others and focus on their lack. Underneath, however, they experience a fierce competitiveness that may be unconscious- a competitiveness for recognition, being unique and special, wanting to be in first place. More hidden and subtle than in the sexual four.

    Explore the pain of the past repeatedly as a way of attracting someone who will take care of them and satisfy their wants. Criminalize their wants. Suffer more keenly for turning against themselves.

    Think with their emotions, get entangled in them to the extent that they can't take action. Tend to be generous and do for others, but don't take responsibility for their own lives.

    In public repress anger or hatred and appear sweet, friendly, and soft. In private may become aggressive. Prefer to swallow their own poison than externalize it to the people around them. Typically have difficulty finding their place in a group and in society. May experience selves as misfits. Tend to generate social situations of rejection to confirm their shame. See themselves as victims and others as perpetrators. Don't always take responsibility for their own actions and aggressiveness.

    Less likely to be mistaken for other enneagram types than the other subtypes of four, but can look like sixes in their focus on what's missing or wrong in their lives. Unlike sixes, however, they desire to be special and spend less time in fear and more time feeling sadness, pain, and shame.

  8. #28
    brainheart
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    Sexual Four:

    Inner motivation envy, manifests as competition. Don't feel consciously envious so much as competitive as a way of muting the pain associated with envy. If they can compete against someone they perceive as having more and win, then they feel better about themselves.

    Believe it's good to be the best. Don't care much about image management or being liked. It's better to be superior. Actively strive to show they are the best.

    Have an 'all or nothing' attitude when it comes to success. If success is not theirs, they are left with nothing. Generates feelings of hate.

    Usually arrogant despite having underlying sense of inferiority. If painfully feel misunderstood will adopt an arrogant attitude as overcompensation. Can be very elitist. May refuse to feel indebted to anyone. Any criticism or reproach is seen as an affront or disqualification.

    Refuse to suffer the pain brought about by envy. Reduce suffering by projecting the responsibility for meeting their needs onto others and minimizing others accomplishments in comparison with their own.

    Make others suffer because they have been made to suffer, so they want compensation. May seek to hurt or punish others to repudiate or minimize own pain.

    "Hurt people hurt people." Externalizing pain helps them ease their inner sense of inferiority. Refuse to suffer. Active insistence on their needs being validated and met. More shameless than shameful. Vocal about expressing needs. Rebel against shame connected to their desires.

    Get mad when others don't meet their needs, but their demanding nature causes others to avoid or reject them, then get angry about being rejected.

    More assertive and angrier than the other subtypes. Mad four vs sad social four. Expression of anger is their way of defending against painful feelings. When they unconsciously turn their pain into anger they don't have to feel their pain anymore.

    Feel justified in blaming others as the source for their deprivation and frustration, which serves as a distraction from their own role in their suffering and a plea for help and understanding.

    Can be the angriest personality among the enneagram types. May express envious anger as a way to establish or assert power when they feel inferior at a deeper level, which can be a way to manipulate situations to their advantage. Can be very impulsive. Want things immediately and have little tolerance for frustration.

    The competition and hate expressed by this four represents a deeper need to project their sense of suffering and inadequacy outward. "I've got to get what I need to convince myself that my needs aren't shameful and to feel better about myself with respect to others." It's a compensation for and a defense against the hurt they feel underneath.

    Like and need emotional intensity. Without intensity, everything can seem unbearably dull and boring. Can be very direct when want somebody's love, or can become "extraordinary"- make themselves seem special and attractive and superior in an effort to attract it. Tend to be more present and available in relationships because they don't deny or avoid many of the factors that can inhibit others relationally. However, at times it may prove difficult for them to maintain a loving attitude because they confuse sweetness and benevolence with being false or insincere.

    Most likely to be confused with eight or sexual two. Have easier access to anger like eights, but differ from eights in the wider range of emotions they regularly feel. Fours will show anger more often because they feel misunderstood and envious while an eight often doesn't 'need' to get angry. Can also look like Sexual Twos because can be seductive and aggressive in relationships. Twos, however, are more oriented toward pleasing others.



    (Brainheart speaking: On second reading of this, I relate to it A LOT. But it didn't make me cry, so... I'm sp/sx but my sx is very strong.)

  9. #29
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Social four:

    Appears more emotionally sensitive, feels things deeply, suffers more than most people. Want others to see their suffering. The hope is if others see it they might be forgiven for their failures and deficiencies and loved unconditionally.

    Lament too much and often put themselves in the victim role. Too attached to the causes of their suffering.

    Envy fuels a focus on shame and suffering by providing a constant source of pain- the fact that others have what they want. However, their suffering also makes them unique and special- kind of seduce others through suffering.

    The way to happiness is through tears. They attract the help of others by expressing their dissatisfaction. Will rationalize their attachment to suffering instead of doing something about it. Depend too much on their needs being fulfilled by others. If you convey the intensity of your need in painful enough terms, someone will finally come to your aid and fulfill that need.

    Envy motivates social fours to focus on their emotional dissatisfaction and internal lack. There is a sense of comfort and familiarity in suffering, and the hope that their suffering will redeem them.

    Central issue: suffering and inferiority. Need to self abase and self recriminate, to turn against oneself, to self weaken. Compare self to others and come up in the lowest position.

    Others may think of them, "what's wrong with you is that you think there's something wrong with you." May actually be competent, attractive, and intelligent, but focus on and identify strongly with suffering and sense of deficiency.

    Feel a sense of shame about their wants and needs. Desire makes them feel guilty. Feel guilty for any wish. Too shy to express desires except through the display of suffering. Don't feel entitled to have their needs met but at the same time feel the world is against them or that no one gives them what they want or need.

    Don't compete with others. Instead compare self to others and focus on their lack. Underneath, however, they experience a fierce competitiveness that may be unconscious- a competitiveness for recognition, being unique and special, wanting to be in first place. More hidden and subtle than in the sexual four.

    Explore the pain of the past repeatedly as a way of attracting someone who will take care of them and satisfy their wants. Criminalize their wants. Suffer more keenly for turning against themselves.

    Think with their emotions, get entangled in them to the extent that they can't take action. Tend to be generous and do for others, but don't take responsibility for their own lives.

    In public repress anger or hatred and appear sweet, friendly, and soft. In private may become aggressive. Prefer to swallow their own poison than externalize it to the people around them. Typically have difficulty finding their place in a group and in society. May experience selves as misfits. Tend to generate social situations of rejection to confirm their shame. See themselves as victims and others as perpetrators. Don't always take responsibility for their own actions and aggressiveness.

    Less likely to be mistaken for other enneagram types than the other subtypes of four, but can look like sixes in their focus on what's missing or wrong in their lives. Unlike sixes, however, they desire to be special and spend less time in fear and more time feeling sadness, pain, and shame.
    *moment*

    But, ugh. My so and sp are so...damn...close.
    4w3 6w5 1w2 sx/sp ISFP

    RLOAX (don't do it)
    Melancholic Hufflepuff
    A lonely island where only what is permitted to move moves, becomes an ideal. Jung

    Kiss Kiss [johari] Bang Bang [nohari]

  10. #30
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misty View Post
    *moment*

    But, ugh. My so and sp are so...damn...close.
    Yeah, same with me and sp and sx. I'd say whichever one provokes the stronger reaction is the lead.

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