[Other/Multiple Enneatypes] 9w8s and 8w9s

[highlander]

I have always thought of our individual placement on the Enneagram as being at some point on the circle - rarely on an exact number but somewhere in-between two numbers, which gives rise to the wings. Two questions.

First - Do you agree with this?

Second - If you do, has it ever seemed strange to you that 8 and 9 are next to each other? They seem so different to me. 8 seems to be the most aggressive of the types and 9 seems to be the most diplomatic or "nice". When I think of a 9w8 or 8w9, it seems like an odd pairing.

 

[skylights]

First, yes, exactly. Like a color spectrum.

Second... I think I can see the overlap in terms of control. 8 and 9 both do control. 8 does so by seizing the situation outwardly... 9 does so by manipulating how much of the situation they allow to affect their internal person. Both are very ego-protective in that way...

So like, my little brother, ISTP, is a 9w8, and I'm pretty sure a sp/sx with a fairly close distance between the two instincts. He much prefers to just remain calm and collected, and to let things happen peacefully. He generally steps back if there's conflict, having essentially zero interest in drama. But, when the conflict threatens his wellbeing or the wellbeing of something or someone he cares about, he very quickly assumes an assertive, physical, and dominant orientation to the situation and its players and acts quickly to eliminate the problem, typically by removing the object being threatened but by addressing the threat if necessary. I have seen him use his physical prowess as leverage - he's slender but very muscular and strong - but have never seen him actually go through with enforcing it. I'm sure he would if he had to but I'm also sure it would make him extremely unhappy to have done so and I believe he would be very inclined to remove himself from the larger situation so as not to risk it happening again. (This is something I have noticed in the 9s I know... they seem more willing than others to just remove themself from situations that have become uncomfortable, even if they have invested in them... a double-edged sword of course...)

I don't know any 8w9s very well, but the one I know best is a manager at my workplace who's pretty laid back but is on top of everything - it's clear that he's in charge, everyone knows it, and he intends to keep it that way - but he's protective of everyone under him and takes good care of them. He's got a magnanimous streak. When he talks about life, it's clear that he knows what he wants and knows how he's going to go about getting it. He's also obviously not averse to having to wait or work harder for a while if it means getting what he wants, which is where I think some of the 9 comes in. He's living well now but he speaks to living below his means and saving.

So the similarity I see between them really boils down to being able to control the parameters of their own lives, but 9 modulates far more internally while 8 modulates far more externally. 9w8 is empowered with 8's understanding of how to control externally so they can use that vision to quickly remove external threat if it is infringing upon their ability to modulate internally, and 8w9 is empowered with 9's understanding of how to control internally so they have better patience and calm while waiting for the execution of external control.

Those are just my thoughts... they are open to criticism and commentary.

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

First - Do you agree with this?

Yes, I do. Observing myself, I am a clear interplay between my wings. And at times, I feel both my wings happening more than my core type.

Second - If you do, has it ever seemed strange to you that 8 and 9 are next to each other? They seem so different to me. 8 seems to be the most aggressive of the types and 9 seems to be the most diplomatic or "nice". When I think of a 9w8 or 8w9, it seems like an odd pairing.

If you go by outward behaviors of conflict versus peace, then yes it is strange.

You have to go below the surface here. It's about resistance to the environment, inertia, denial of circumstances, and numbing out or forgetting whatever doesn't agree (for 9s, this is whatever ruins their inner sense of peace; for 8s, this is information that might set them against themselves).

The 8 is caught between the high-energy, enthusiasm, and big ideas of the 7, as well as the inertia and routine of the 9. Consequently, you get someone who has lots of grand ideas, but is often settled enough to actually accomplish them. The "gluttony" is held in place by inertia, hence you get excess--instead of doing everything, 8 do one thing over and over again, then move on to conquer something else. Given that both 7 and 9 tend to put their minds elsewhere, you have someone who is very unable to be affected by the present moment (hence, callousness)

The 9 is caught between the "goodness" of 1, and the "badness" of 8. They don't know whether to agree or disagree, to obey or disobey, indulge physical desires or deny physical desires, etc. On one side there's the impulse to be self-interested, on the other there's the impulse to make the world more perfect. How do you deal with all that push-pull other than become numb and stubborn? Outwardly comply, but inwardly follow your own way. 9s can be both callous to others, like 8s, and concerned with maintaining the "right" way of doing things, like 1s.

It all makes sense to me.

 

[Southern Kross]

It makes more sense if you think of 8s as being more about control and 9s being about calm - then the two can go together quite naturally. 8w9 focus on controlled aggression, whereas 9w8s have a more self-composed directivity about them.

My Dad is a ISTP 8w9 (like your brother [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION]!) and if I knew less about the enneagram I would never have said he had any 8-ness in him. There's no aggression or anger at all. It's only after reading a bit more that I began to see 8 traits in him. I think for 9w8s it's so more more about self-control and conquering one's own 'weaknesses' (as they see them), than it is about unleashing anger on others.

 

[Kasper]

I have always thought of our individual placement on the Enneagram as being at some point on the circle - rarely on an exact number but somewhere in-between two numbers, which gives rise to the wings. Two questions.

First - Do you agree with this?

Not totally, my core is exactly 9, putting me at a point between 9 and 8 that correlates with the strength of my wing reduces my 9 which isn't accurate. 9 accounts for my motivations, fears, childhood message etc, I do relate to fears of 8s, rather strongly too however they don't impact on my 9 in a diminishing way, they're secondary or incorporated with them, or when conflicting, disregarded. I do agree with the image painted in terms of strength of wing though.

Second - If you do, has it ever seemed strange to you that 8 and 9 are next to each other? They seem so different to me. 8 seems to be the most aggressive of the types and 9 seems to be the most diplomatic or "nice". When I think of a 9w8 or 8w9, it seems like an odd pairing.

I'll post more later, for now though I am most curious as to what type you would put 9 next to instead of 8 if you could shuffle them in a way that looked less odd to you? The point of the question is to see how you view 9s.

 

[Elfboy]

I have always thought of our individual placement on the Enneagram as being at some point on the circle - rarely on an exact number but somewhere in-between two numbers, which gives rise to the wings. Two questions.
First - Do you agree with this?

yes, I think it also explains why some people have more prominent wings while others have a bit of influence from both

Second - If you do, has it ever seemed strange to you that 8 and 9 are next to each other? They seem so different to me. 8 seems to be the most aggressive of the types and 9 seems to be the most diplomatic or "nice". When I think of a 9w8 or 8w9, it seems like an odd pairing.

I do. within every center, I think there are two types next to each other which are absolutely nothing alike
- 8 and 9
- 3 and 4
- 6 and 7
in fact, I don't think most types have much in common with the other two types of their respective centers at all (for example, 7 is much more similar to 8 than it is to either 5 or 6)

 

[Ene]

Oh, my goodness, this thread, along with an NF Geeks video, has sent me to seeing ennegram in a new light. I just discovered that nines often mistype as fives....I think I'm a 9! [MENTION=15886]superunknown[/MENTION] was right!

EDITED so that the mentions show up.

[MENTION=15371]RaptorWizard[/MENTION] also said it.

 

[WALMART]

Oh, my goodness, this thread, along with an NF Geeks video, has sent me to seeing ennegram in a new light. I just discovered that nines often mistype as fives....I think I'm a 9! [MENTION]raptor wizard[/MENTION] was right!

Should there be a superunknown after that @

 

[Ene]

Hahaha....YES! There should be. I'm gonna fix that right now.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Super busy, but will contribute when I can.

 

[Ene]

Just from what little I've gathered, it seems that a 9 who had a "spark" of "go-getter" in him or her would need just enough 8 aggression to push them into doing what needs to be done. Or maybe they would be like Thomas Jefferson once said, in matters of style (temporary or passing trends) go with the stream, but in matters of principle (eternal values or the big picture) stand like a rock (mountain). Maybe a 9w8 lives by the motto of "pick your battles," if it's something that won't matter in two months, let it go. If it's something that will make a long term difference, open a can of Whoopass!

I can see that in me. Maybe there's just enough 8 to keep a fire lit under my tail and make people wonder how a laid back, sweet, easy-going southern gal can be so full of fire beneath the surface. Like I said though, ennegrams are only just now beginning to make sense to me.

One guy told me I couldn't be a nine because I'm creative. I thought that was malarkey. I imagine that ANY type can have a spark of creativity in their own way.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Second - If you do, has it ever seemed strange to you that 8 and 9 are next to each other? They seem so different to me. 8 seems to be the most aggressive of the types and 9 seems to be the most diplomatic or "nice". When I think of a 9w8 or 8w9, it seems like an odd pairing.

I can totally see the push/pull in the people I know who are either 9w8 or 8w9. My sister is almost certainly 9w8- and it may be all the bullying from her I experienced growing up (she's older), but both influences are definitely there. And I have a rather close friend who is either 9w8 or 8w9- it's so close that I can't even tell. It's hard to explain, but it seems like two different sides of the same coin (much like e4 and e5 seem to me).

On the other hand, my son is 9w1 and I don't see anything resembling 8 in him. Same with my dad. It's weird, it's like a totally different flavor of e9- in fact an e9 with a balanced wing seems stranger to me than an e9 with w8.

 

[statuesquechica]

Just from what little I've gathered, it seems that a 9 who had a "spark" of "go-getter" in him or her would need just enough 8 aggression to push them into doing what needs to be done. Or maybe they would be like Thomas Jefferson once said, in matters of style (temporary or passing trends) go with the stream, but in matters of principle (eternal values or the big picture) stand like a rock (mountain). Maybe a 9w8 lives by the motto of "pick your battles," if it's something that won't matter in two months, let it go. If it's something that will make a long term difference, open a can of Whoopass!

I identify with this interpretation a great deal. I even find myself using the phrase "pick your battles" both personally and professionally...I think it is the essence of the 9w8. The comparison of the flow of the stream vs. the persistence of the rock is very apt as well...I experience both and use both in my language. I think the combination results in an atypical e9 and makes it all the harder to recognize.

I do like the visual of the Enneagram being a circular spectrum where so many different flavors of an e9 (or any type) can be identified. I don't find it strange that the 9 is between the 8 and the 1. It does contribute to the push/pull dynamic that has been discussed already where there is the constant battle against inertia. I think the 8 wing causes me to be more confrontational, but out of a sense of strength rather than control and this results in me probably appearing more intense. I can become angry (rather than use other euphemisms like frustration/upset) but pretty quickly defuse...but only about things that really matter to me.

I am really working on accepting my anger and calling it that...learning about the 8wing characteristics is helping me to be more honest with myself.

 

[Ene]

I identify with this interpretation a great deal. I even find myself using the phrase "pick your battles" both personally and professionally...I think it is the essence of the 9w8. The comparison of the flow of the stream vs. the persistence of the rock is very apt as well...I experience both and use both in my language. I think the combination results in an atypical e9 and makes it all the harder to recognize.

I do like the visual of the Enneagram being a circular spectrum where so many different flavors of an e9 (or any type) can be identified. I don't find it strange that the 9 is between the 8 and the 1. It does contribute to the push/pull dynamic that has been discussed already where there is the constant battle against inertia. I think the 8 wing causes me to be more confrontational, but out of a sense of strength rather than control and this results in me probably appearing more intense. I can become angry (rather than use other euphemisms like frustration/upset) but pretty quickly defuse...but only about things that really matter to me.

I am really working on accepting my anger and calling it that...learning about the 8wing characteristics is helping me to be more honest with myself.

So glad you shared this! I don't become "upset" either. I get angry and when I do, I get determined and in rare instances, especially when I was a kid, I would go stone cold silent and then physically attack. I've always been quick, strong and agile. So, people would start to freak out when I gave them "the glare" and other kids knew...run. Banner is about to change into Hulk! It only happened maybe three times in twenty years.

 

[greenfairy]

Well I think I'm 9w1, but I'm not always diplomatic and nice. I'm more concerned with whatever agenda I have at the time and being right. Maybe that's the 1. I fight for justice even if it's just my right to do what I want.

It does seem strange to me that the two are next to each other, but I could see how they might be connected; 9 is a number of completion, so after mastering the lessons of 8 and learning how to balance power one can find inner peace. And from a place of inner peace comes reform (1). You sometimes need to fight for peace (or balance, or harmony), which is how 8 could work with 9. Kind of paradoxical, but balance comes through action as well as receptivity.

I get mad a lot; might that mean I have balanced wings? I am very averse to expressing it physically though. I intellectualize my emotions. And oddly for a 9 anger is the emotion other than happiness I am most comfortable with.

Or maybe I'm not a 9. Who knows. I probably am because I don't know.

The 9 is caught between the "goodness" of 1, and the "badness" of 8. They don't know whether to agree or disagree, to obey or disobey, indulge physical desires or deny physical desires, etc. On one side there's the impulse to be self-interested, on the other there's the impulse to make the world more perfect. How do you deal with all that push-pull other than become numb and stubborn? Outwardly comply, but inwardly follow your own way. 9s can be both callous to others, like 8s, and concerned with maintaining the "right" way of doing things, like 1s.

This describes my experience well.

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

Well I think I'm 9w1, but I'm not always diplomatic and nice. I'm more concerned with whatever agenda I have at the time and being right. Maybe that's the 1. I fight for justice even if it's just my right to do what I want.

...

This describes my experience well.

Thanks. Just wanna add that my mom's a 9w1 as well...she's not always diplomatic and nice, either. Actually, she sees herself as pragmatic, sensible, and a bit feisty--which she is when you cross the "line". She's always quietly done her own thing and isn't really "nicey-nice"--she's rather resentful, strict, and proper, and a bit standoffish (I thought she could be a 1w9 at first). She also sees herself as being incredibly passive till, again, you cross the line.

 

[King Temur]

I have always thought of our individual placement on the Enneagram as being at some point on the circle - rarely on an exact number but somewhere in-between two numbers, which gives rise to the wings. Two questions.

First - Do you agree with this?

Second - If you do, has it ever seemed strange to you that 8 and 9 are next to each other? They seem so different to me. 8 seems to be the most aggressive of the types and 9 seems to be the most diplomatic or "nice". When I think of a 9w8 or 8w9, it seems like an odd pairing.

I think the enneagram is not an end-all-be-all system as you seem to be making it out to be.

It comes close to identifying some key repetitive archetypes that occur in human nature. That being said -- I'm sure everyone is some blend on a spectrum rather than a pinpoint type -- so yes, I'd agree with your assertion.


I can see how at first glance 8 and 9 being together seems ridiculous. But in action it actually comes together quite well. I think the 8w9 is called "The Bear" in some places, and this is a really good way of putting it. They tend to want to do their own thing, go their own way -- when they don't like something, rather than yelling and blasting like the stereotypical 8w7, they'll just leave.

It's when they are crossed in their pathway that they tend to attack. So as you can see it's a nice blend of the two types and actually describes the personality quite well, in my opinion.

 

[Yeah...Nope.]

I'm a 9w8. And have gone through all these "anger", "pick your battles" and "stone cold silent then physically attack (as a child)" situations. Also removed a verbal sexually harassing teacher from my kid's school, screaming match with a rude drunk (yeah, low point in my life), put all my 5 siblings in place because of a stupid argument between some of them (they've only witness my rage maybe 3 times in their lifetime) and told off a handsy ex-boss. If at that moment we're not particularly healthy, woe on you...

And my preferred show of anger is cold, calm and hissed. It's more effective in getting your point across.

 

[Tem]

I'm a 9w8. And have gone through all these "anger", "pick your battles" and "stone cold silent then physically attack (as a child)" situations. Also removed a verbal sexually harassing teacher from my kid's school, screaming match with a rude drunk (yeah, low point in my life), put all my 5 siblings in place because of a stupid argument between some of them (they've only witness my rage maybe 3 times in their lifetime) and told off a handsy ex-boss. If at that moment we're not particularly healthy, woe on you...

And my preferred show of anger is cold, calm and hissed. It's more effective in getting your point across.

+1.

I do similar things -- particularly when I snap, people are often really surprised. I tend to go from my usual flat, neutral composure to filling up the entire room.
In retrospect I know that deep down I regret the things I do to other people, but what runs through my mind is that they were dealt what they deserve -- and not even enough. It's never enough.

Genuinely, I prefer for people to get the picture when I give them a dirty look -- I don't like getting involved nor getting angry.

I identify with a lot of the type 9. I really like for people to be getting along, for people to be treated fairly and for nobody to feel left out or ostracized unless they've crossed the line. Innocent souls reach out to me I have a soft spot for them, I've always been the guy to include that person who is different in some way, probably because I can identify. I don't like to be disturbed, and I'm usually pretty content just doing my own thing and being with the people who I've grown to love.

 

[Tem]

I can see that in me. Maybe there's just enough 8 to keep a fire lit under my tail and make people wonder how a laid back, sweet, easy-going southern gal can be so full of fire beneath the surface.

That's really sexy

One guy told me I couldn't be a nine because I'm creative. I thought that was malarkey. I imagine that ANY type can have a spark of creativity in their own way.

What a moron