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  1. #21
    WALMART
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    I figured it stemmed from a complete emotional and physical competence to navigate one's environment in a manner satisfactory to the ego.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    First things first, I strongly object to the idea that 9s are dependent. I have not heard that one and very much disagree with it, self-forgetting, malleable and unassuming; yes, dependent; no.

    We give up our own needs because we believe they are unimportant, there is no reason to be dependent on others because of this. One simply needs to witness the stubbornness of a 9 when they disagree to realise we are independent on matters we care about.

    Ignoring 'dependent', in true 9 style I say I do not see the other things things being opposites or incompatible with being autonomous or strongly individual.

    In the absence of an opinion a 9 will just go along, we will be unaware of our personal stance as we haven't considered or upon consideration found we really couldn't feel strongly one way or another, if someone else has a strong view we will go along with them because of our lack of conviction for or against and the impact of holy love on our desire to not be unacceptable to others means 'why not?', after all the 9 doesn't care so let's not close the door to any options, and let's also not create a situation where someone else's needs that seem to be important are dismissed, we hate it when the latter happens to us so do not enjoy doing it to others.

    If we do have a view though, then we will likely react one of three ways to someone with an opposing wish; we will with diplomacy share why we 'can understand their view but prefer our alternate view', will silently and stubbornly ignore them and do what we want regardless of their wishes, or (over) react with anger/defiance/strength either a version of strong moral conviction of a w1 or assertiveness of a w8 and show our disagreement.

    Personally, I am highly malleable, yet I am also fiercely independent, this plays out by being forever open to views on 99% of life, things I haven't sat down and via my own experiences and learning come to a hard fast conclusion, I, like all 9s, can see and hold duel seemingly contradictory points of views open in my mind as valid possibilities so in a conversation if you hold a strong view and it contradicts what I have previously considered, I can genuinely see it as a possibility, however there are firm boundaries with me, I cannot be moved if I do not want to be, I will rely on no one to get what I want once I've made up my mind. I minimise my own needs in a self forgetting way, I am malleable and unassuming, I am also always autonomous despite my willingness to work with others and I am my own man who will not be changed because others want it. Often when a 9 goes along with others it's because they are uninvested, when we do not it's a sign we are present in the moment as we tend to know what we do not want easier than knowing what we do.
    Well said. I realised I think this way but haven't heard anyone else say it like that and couldn't explain it better than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Damn Fi. I kinda think Fi + 9 may help limit self forgetting.

    Self forgetting is allowing ourselves to believe we don't have needs or opinions, to allow ourselves to 'not care' one way or another and ignoring that rising anger inside that tells us 'oops, you do care, you just don't believe you matter enough to count'.
    Anger is interesting, when you feel anger at something it is sometimes difficult to gauge how much to impose your will on the world. I feel like it is better to gauge the pros and cons than rely on emotions. I don't like to do something from an emotional standpoint. I always want a solid reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    W1 + Fi is gloriously scary with epic judgy hidden-unknown-boundaries wrath <3

    Fe is all like, your needs matter, I sorry
    lol @ epic judgy hidden-unknown-boundaries wrath <3

    It seems to me that autonomy lies in this kind of attitude... a kind of chill aloofness. Choosing your battles, rather than pissing in the wind.

  3. #23
    metamorphosing Flâneuse's Avatar
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    My experience with indecisiveness and malleability:
    I have strong values, but they don't always lead me toward a particular action; instead of saying "do this" or "take this path", they say "don't do this" or "this is sacred, don't violate it." That still leaves a lot of potential paths open, and I sometimes don't trust myself to choose the right one so I go down the easiest and least conflict-inducing of the open paths. For me, becoming more genuinely individualistic means getting better at choosing what I view as the BEST path in every situation, instead of the easiest of the acceptable ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    Although E9's are often described as being self-forgetting, dependent, malleable and unassuming, quite a few 9s strike me as being the exact opposite; having a strong sense of autonomy, individuality, etc.. Often times, moreso than most.
    I think it's a matter of how healthy the individual is. Nines at their best are supposed to be some of the most autonomous and self-connected people you'll ever meet. (Similar to the way optimally healthy Threes are supposed to be the most genuine, Twos the least prideful, etc.)

    Average-to-unhealthy Nines are disconnected from themselves to a degree, although this can result in extreme stubbornness just as much as compliance. Most Nines do both, though in what proportion depends on the individual. (By "stubbornness", I mean an unthinking adherence to a course of action or belief and an unwillingness to even listen to others, or inertia as opposed to self-direction.) The way I experience stubbornness, it's like a poor replacement for genuine confidence and autonomy, or a counterreaction against the feeling of being pulled in a million different directions from the outside that happens when I'm out of touch with the sense of direction that comes from within.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Personally, I am highly malleable, yet I am also fiercely independent, this plays out by being forever open to views on 99% of life, things I haven't sat down and via my own experiences and learning come to a hard fast conclusion, I, like all 9s, can see and hold duel seemingly contradictory points of views open in my mind as valid possibilities so in a conversation if you hold a strong view and it contradicts what I have previously considered, I can genuinely see it as a possibility, however there are firm boundaries with me, I cannot be moved if I do not want to be, I will rely on no one to get what I want once I've made up my mind.
    ^
    This sums up the genuine autonomy of healthy Nines: open-minded, able to consider different perspectives and still know where they stand because they are so in touch with their inner voices.

  4. #24
    Glamour puss with a tan Raffaella's Avatar
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    I believe I'm naturally autonomous however I struggle because I can generally recognise my needs but I feel I'm extremely incompetent and powerless to stand for them. This builds up a lot of resentment, stubbornness, and frustration. Sometimes I fear I need anger management classes because I really relate to the idea that "nines have a well of anger".

    Also, I don't believe those traits are opposites. You can be self forgetting and autonomous, self-forgetting focuses on your needs, autonomy is about freedom from external control and influence in many ways. You can forget your needs but still be independent of others. Likewise, you can be an individual but still open to changes (malleable).

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