User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 101

  1. #1
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SLI None
    Posts
    9,635

    Default 2 is the SEDUCER, not the helper

    in the United States in particular, there is a growing myth going around the Enneagram community that 2s are these saintly, dutiful helpers who are constantly putting the needs of others before their own.
    first off, it's worth remembering that the vice of 2 is Pride and that they have a stress line to 8.
    keeping that in mind, let's look at what Naranjo has to about 2s

    Pride

    While a number of descriptors might be grouped together as direct manifestations of pride—i.e., the imaginary exaltation of self-worth and attractiveness, “playing the part of the princess,” demanding privileges, boasting, needing to be the center of attention, and so on —there are others which may be understood as psychological “corollaries” of pride, and to them I now turn.
    Hedonism

    Hedonism may also be understood as a trait related to the need for love, in that the wish for pleasure can be usually seen as a substitute for pleasure. Indeed these persons typically need to be loved erotically or through delicate expression of tenderness in the measure to which they equate being loved with being pleased, like in Grimm’s fairy tale of “The Princess and the Pea,” whose noble blood is discovered in the fact that she is distressed by the pea under the mattress. The affectionate and tender type II individual can become a fury when not indulged and made to feel loved through pampering such as is characteristic of a spoiled child.
    The compulsive pursuit of pleasure of the ennea-type II person naturally supports the gay persona of histrionic people, with its pretended contentedness and animation. It is reflected, also, through a propensity to be frustrated and when not specially pleased (through attention, novelty, stimulation), through a low tolerance to routine, discipline, and other obstacles to an irresponsible, playful life.
    Seductiveness

    It is understandable that the histrionic individual bent on the pursuit of love and pleasure is also keenly interested in being attractive. Such persons work for it, we might say, and are, above all, seductive. There are traits that we can, in turn, understand as tools of seductiveness —whether erotic or social. Thus the histrionic person is affectionate. Those who are in need of affection, because of being secretly insecure in regard to it, are, in turn, warm, supportive, sensitive, empathic ... even though their display of love may have inspired epithets such as”superficial,” “fickle,” “unstable,” and so forth. The support seductively offered by the individual is typically what may be called “emotional” support or perhaps “moral” support in the sense that one is an unconditional friend, yet may be not as helpful a person as may be suggested through the expression of feelings. (Ennea-type III and others can be more helpful when it comes to doing something practical.) Thus their seductiveness entails not only a histrionic love display but also a failure to deliver and, motivationally speaking, a “giving to get” kind of generosity.

    Flattery, too, may be valued as a means of seduction exhibited by ennea-type II individuals. It must be pointed out that type II only flatters those seen as worthy enough to be seduced.

    Eroticism is thus one of the vehicles of seductiveness. If we look at the erotic inclination of the histrionic individual as something that serves a broader purpose of proving personal significance (rather than in biologistic Freudian terms), we can, I think, understand both eroticism and pride better.
    Assertiveness

    Along with an intense love need and its derivatives, we may say that dominance is also a characteristic of ennea-type II and constitutes a derivative of pride. Rather than the harsh, tyrannical demandingness of ennea-type VIII and the moralistic dominance of ennea-type I, who exacts his due as an authority, type II gets his or her wishes met through daring assertiveness—chutzpah. It is the assertiveness of one who at the same time is supported in a good self-concept and propelled by a strong, uninhibited drive–which contributes to the aura of vitality of this adventurous character. (As I have remarked already, proud character involves a rare combination of tenderness and pugnacity.)

    Another descriptor belonging to this category of assertiveness is willfulness, a trait of “having to have one’s own way” even at the expense of an emotional “scene” or broken dishes.
    Histrionism

    I could have written at the head of this trait cluster “histrionic implementation of the idealized self-image,” in reference to what may be abstracted as an over-riding strategy in ennea-type II of which false love and false self-satisfaction are a strong form of expression. The affectionate characteristic, however, can be seen as only one of the facets of the typical ideal image the proud enacts and identifies with.

    Such image also contains the happy characteristic that we have already encountered in the analysis of seductiveness, an independence that involves the denial of dependency needs, and also a characteristic for which the word “free” might be an approximate term, if we understand it to be not the true freedom of liberation from characterological structures, but the freedomof willfulness, impulsiveness, and wildness. This freedom is an ideal of impulse gratification that exists not only in the service of hedonism, but also as an avoidance of the humiliation of having to submit to somebody else’s power, societal rules and all manner of constraints. Ennea- type II is not only too proud to conform to such rules, but is rebellious to authority in general —often in a mischievous and humorous way.

    Also “intensity,” which can be considered, along with wit, a means of attracting attention (and which feeds on the pursuit of pleasure), can be understood as an ingredient in a larger than life self-image. It is not only an addiction but also a form of posing and sustaining the illusion of positivity. The histrionic posing of ennea-type II is in contrast to the efforts of type III to implement the idealized self through achievement and performance—just as her histrionic manipulation (through scandalous expression of emotion) is in contrast with type Ill’s explosiveness, which supervenes upon the breakdown of over-control.
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
    ENFP
    5w4>1w9>2w1 Sx/Sp
    SEE-Fi
    Papa Bear
    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire
    Likes chubber, bundleofsunshine liked this post

  2. #2
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SLI None
    Posts
    9,635

    Default

    As with all nine types, E2s come in three main instinctual types: Self Preservation, Social and Sexual. Do any of these sound selfless, helpful or altruistic to you? draw your own conclusions:

    Self Preservation 2

    according to Naranjo
    Self-Preservation: Egocentric ("Me first"). Infantile, like a child ("I am the most important thing"). It's not
    power, but the child's feeling of being privileged; e.g., the wife in David Copperfield who didn't know how
    to pay the maid, who put bells on the dog, and the Accounts book ended up in the dog's house. ("Please
    don't get angry with me, I only wanted to help!"). Ineffective help. Not wanting to grow up. Too soft, too
    much needing protection. A Four-ish Two. More openly dependent. Their pride resides as a child in
    "being the favorite in Daddy's or Mommy's eyes."
    according to Maitri
    Self-Preservation Two: "Me First"
    Self-Preservation Twos are afraid of being neglected and not having their needs met, so out of their survival anxiety, they take care of others so that others will take care of them. They have a self-sacrificing facade: this is the proverbial Jewish mother syndrome in which she appears to be thinking of others first and putting them ahead of herself, but in fact it is really manipulating them in this way on her own behalf. The passion of pride manifests here as a hidden sense of entitlement and privilege - a conviction that others must take care of them in compensation for their martyrdom, and that they deserve to keep the best bits in the kitchen for themselves.

    Social 2

    according to Naranjo
    Social: Ambition. The most pushy of Twos, like the Prestige Three. Egocentric in a completely different way, seduction through achievement or semblance of achievement, focus on power, More
    propagandizing (where the Three is more sharp, witty), more flamboyant, makes more claims. A little
    colder, not so warm as the other Two subtypes.
    according to Maitri
    Social Two: Ambition
    Social Twos are social climbers, very conscious of social hierarchies and intent on being accepted and aligned with those at the top as a way of resolving their sense of not belonging. Who they are associated with and how important those people are gives them their sense of social standing. The passion of pride manifests here in the self-validation and sense of being worthwhile that arise when they have achieved the position and status that they are after. It also manifests in their refusal to be seen as unimportant or ordinary, rather than special and stellar in whatever group they are part of or aspire to be connected with.

    Sexual 2

    according to Naranjo
    Sexual: Seduction (also called Invincibility or Conquest). Every Two is seductive in one way or the other,
    but this subtype is the specialist. Life becomes focused on success in seducing. A woman of this subtype
    can lead a man around by the nose, even an Eight male. More imaginative, more original, shows a
    seeming independence; dependent in the moment of bonding, but more Eight-ish, wild, creative,
    adventuresome, quick to detach if not loved. "Femme Fatale." They "eat up" what they want. Casanova
    once seduced someone in jail through the bars, once someone passing on the street, but he could never
    get interested in a relationship beyond a few days. He was not interested in the person, he was interested
    in the process of seduction. Collecting conquests, as if an insecurity about himself led him to prove it
    again and again. "I am because I fuck!" The sexual element of the Two needs an element of freedom.
    So Casanova was an adventurer; he tricked people with money, was a speculator, con man (e.g., old
    ladies).
    according to Maitri
    Sexual Two: Aggression/Seduction
    Ichazo gave only aggression as the descriptor of this subtype, and Naranjo distinguished between a female Two's seductive style and a male Two's aggressive one. Because of their insecurity about their desirability, Sexual Twos either seduce or force the other into relationship, depending on their gender. Once in a relationship, Sexual Twos also either entice or push their partner into doing what they desire, again depending on gender. Sexual Twos of both genders usually have tenacious attraction to an elusive partner. Female Twos are obsessed with the desire to be wanted, and male Twos are obsessed with overcoming all obstacles to union. In both cases, they are attempting to find personal value through love. The passion of pride manifests here in an extreme sensitivity about being desired or not, and sometimes as a pride in the number of sexual conquests one has made.
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
    ENFP
    5w4>1w9>2w1 Sx/Sp
    SEE-Fi
    Papa Bear
    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  3. #3
    Honeyed Water thoughtlost's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Enneagram
    N/A
    Posts
    750

    Default

    Sounds interesting. I think I like twos ...I like the idea of someone being seductive. I like intense twos.
    You are so arbitrary.

  4. #4
    climb on Showbread's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Enneagram
    3w2 so/sp
    Posts
    2,332

    Default

    I think we should just merge this with the ESFJ hate thread. The same bases are probably going to get covered.
    Friends, waffles, work

    "The problem is, when you depend on a substitute for love, you can never get enough" - Louis Cozolino

    3w2 6w7 1w2
    *Gryffindor*

    Likes chubber liked this post

  5. #5
    Earth Exalted Thursday's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    8w9 sp/sx
    Socionics
    LIE
    Posts
    3,965

    Default

    Yeesh. That makes too much sense.
    I N V I C T U S

  6. #6
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SLI None
    Posts
    9,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Showbread View Post
    I think we should just merge this with the ESFJ hate thread. The same bases are probably going to get covered.
    hardly. part of my point is that these traits are NOT similar to the stereotypical FJ/2 connection (in fact, contrary to Naranjo's correlation of 2 with Fe, his description, imo, rings more similar to an ESTP than any xxFJ type)

    your typical ESFJ seems more like a Social 6w7
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
    ENFP
    5w4>1w9>2w1 Sx/Sp
    SEE-Fi
    Papa Bear
    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire
    Likes bundleofsunshine liked this post

  7. #7
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SLI None
    Posts
    9,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtlost View Post
    Sounds interesting. I think I like twos ...I like the idea of someone being seductive. I like intense twos.
    my experience of 2s is usually one of the following

    1) "I want to kill you!"
    2) (if female 2) "you are a bad ass bitch!"
    3) (if male 2) "you give me a boner! fuck me now!"
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
    ENFP
    5w4>1w9>2w1 Sx/Sp
    SEE-Fi
    Papa Bear
    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire
    Likes bundleofsunshine liked this post

  8. #8
    ndovjtjcaqidthi
    Guest

    Default

    Threes are the real seducers.

  9. #9
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    5,931

    Default

    You have a point, though you seem to be negating their good qualities by assuming selfish intentions behind everything they do.

  10. #10
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SLI None
    Posts
    9,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nights and Days View Post
    Threes are the real seducers.
    no. 3s are the most deceitful and crafty at image manipulation, but it is 2s who are the Seducers of the Enneagram par excellence and the sources prove it.
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
    ENFP
    5w4>1w9>2w1 Sx/Sp
    SEE-Fi
    Papa Bear
    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire
    Likes bundleofsunshine liked this post

Similar Threads

  1. INTP or not INTP. That is the question.
    By RandomINTP in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 80
    Last Post: 07-21-2015, 11:17 AM
  2. Is the Big Bang Theory supported by scientific evidence and why or why not?
    By RaptorWizard in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 07-13-2013, 01:52 PM
  3. To eat, or not to eat, that is the bacon.
    By ilikeitlikethat in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 09-08-2012, 11:28 PM
  4. Replies: 15
    Last Post: 12-08-2010, 01:47 PM
  5. To Be or Not to Be...That is the Question!!
    By Winds of Thor in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 02-11-2009, 05:06 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO