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[Type 2] 2 is the SEDUCER, not the helper

Evo

Unapologetic being
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sp/sx
I'm enthusiastic about this thread because I know a male ISFP 2 sx who, had it not been for someone indicating 2s as seductive, would have left me quite confused as to where he falls on the enneagram. He's helpful, sure, but hardly. I've been with him the past year, and he definitely has needs that he tries to give to get. I'm not sure how healthy he is because I've definitely seen him utilize his "disintegration" to 8 to get his way. Probably not a very healthy chap. =/ This guy's a highly-skilled seducer with no reservations sexually speaking.

He's that male 2 here. One time we got into a huge disagreement and we decided to end things between us. (Situation is: He says he wants to marry me, and I'm pretty sure I don't want to marry him but I still care a lot.) I asked him about his day and he wouldn't tell me, which made me upset since I tell him everything. His reasoning was he already gave me too much and now needs to withhold things. I pried and pried, finally after much tension, he whispered that he returned the ring he bought me. Immediately he said he felt remorse for telling me, and he played to my guilt and compassion like a champ. I'm 95% certain he never bought nor returned a ring, and that he was saying because he knows I try to take him seriously. That need for control reflects disintegration to 8 and further removal from 4-ish authenticity.

That's some of my experience with 2 seduction and manipulation. I could go on and on, but I'll stop there.

I actually really like your example. You don't have to stop if you don't want to. It's interesting.

And I can totally see a 2 doing that. If that's an example of how they seduce, then yea I get it. The social and self pres 2's are the only ones I've met, and they just don't seem as "stop at nothing" as you've described.
 
B

brainheart

Guest
4, 5, or 8. Then 3. Then 2.
[MENTION=21109]Look Alive_Sunshine[/MENTION], this sounds an awful like the typing journey of an [MENTION=17911]Animal[/MENTION] who prowls around here. You might want to talk to her.
 

Animal

So carnal it's spiritual
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4, 5, or 8. Then 3. Then 2.

[MENTION=21109]Look Alive_Sunshine[/MENTION], this sounds an awful like the typing journey of an [MENTION=17911]Animal[/MENTION] who prowls around here. You might want to talk to her.

Haha. We've been talking =D

Yeah my typing journey was messy. A lot of this is because I was traumatized & drug addicted etc when I first encountered enneagram back in 2001. I wasn't on forums. I read a few books and mistyped at 5. There was a bit of an "enneagram " culture at my school. My first inclination was 4w5 but I was talked out of it because the other 4s in my school were practically suicidal, and I seemed less "on a suicide mission" despite having suffered greater hardship. That being said I was immensely self-destructive, just not as public about it. But I took the excuse to not type at 4 because doing so would hurt my ego and at the time I was wearing a lot of armor. This is hard to explain but the reasons my journey got messy were mostly to do with a very very very tumultuous life. In retrospect 4 was beyond obvious even if my wing is difficult, so I was really damn stupid to confuse myself out of a 4 typing.
 

skylights

i love
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[MENTION=21109]Look Alive_Sunshine[/MENTION], I'm presenting my ideas and trying to integrate what I have learned with what others are presenting. Clearly, the two are clashing, and it's a challenge to sort what is right from what isn't when I don't have the eyes of a 2 to look behind. Perhaps what I'm saying is totally wrong and perhaps I don't understand 2 at all, but regardless, you really don't have to be an asshole about it.
 

HBIC

Member
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Messages
174
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ESTP
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8w7
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sx/sp
[MENTION=21109]Look Alive_Sunshine[/MENTION], I'm presenting my ideas and trying to integrate what I have learned with what others are presenting. Clearly, the two are clashing, and it's a challenge to sort what is right from what isn't when I don't have the eyes of a 2 to look behind. Perhaps what I'm saying is totally wrong and perhaps I don't understand 2 at all, but regardless, you really don't have to be an asshole about it.

An asshole? Because of that? Yeah, Fi is really not my thing.
 

Aurora James

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True (and really annoying) , but Twos usually do this unintentionally
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
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Why make it a dichotomy? Why can't a lot of E2's be helpers even if some are takers? I get really burnt out on constantly looking for the negative because it pulls everyone down.

My individual impression of all of these psychological categories is that the negative manifestations tend to come from falsely using a particular function or instinct. Fe becomes fake when it is actually Te masquerading as Fe. Te become irrational when it is actually Fe masquerading as Te. I suspect that when other instincts choose to "act" like an E2, that this is when it becomes fake and manipulative. When it is genuine, then it is good and helpful. I may be on a pollyanna humanistic wild ride in my head, but I've come to this conclusion. I do think there are negative aspects of humanity, but it makes more sense to me that it is founded on falseness.
 

Elfboy

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4, 5, or 8. Then 3. Then 2.

[MENTION=21109]Look Alive_Sunshine[/MENTION], this sounds an awful like the typing journey of an [MENTION=17911]Animal[/MENTION] who prowls around here. You might want to talk to her.

what are you referring to hear?
 

Aurora James

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"Saintly dutiful helper" makes me think more of type Nine than type Two.
 

Kasper

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"Saintly dutiful helper" makes me think more of type Nine than type Two.

Nah, that's way too invested to be directed towards 9s. 2s make the better "helpers" than 9s, it's because they want/need something from it though.
 

highlander

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Why make it a dichotomy? Why can't a lot of E2's be helpers even if some are takers? I get really burnt out on constantly looking for the negative because it pulls everyone down.

My individual impression of all of these psychological categories is that the negative manifestations tend to come from falsely using a particular function or instinct. Fe becomes fake when it is actually Te masquerading as Fe. Te become irrational when it is actually Fe masquerading as Te. I suspect that when other instincts choose to "act" like an E2, that this is when it becomes fake and manipulative. When it is genuine, then it is good and helpful. I may be on a pollyanna humanistic wild ride in my head, but I've come to this conclusion. I do think there are negative aspects of humanity, but it makes more sense to me that it is founded on falseness.

That captures my thinking on this pretty well.
 

Hawthorne

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Well, most of Naranjo's characterization is deliberately focused on the neurotic manifestation of the enneatypes. Hence the title of his book, Character and Neurosis. Riso and co do a better of job highlighting the positives even if it gets somewhat reductionist at times.

If the basis of the ennea is an examination of one's ingrained, maladaptive defense mechanisms, I do not find it terribly surprising that more focus is given to the negative aspects of the types.
 

Kasper

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It seems to me that Naranjo never met nor observed a healthy version 2.

With regards to all types, he was not focused on writing about 'healthy versions'.
 

fetus

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Me? A seducer?
:rofl1:

It depends on what you mean by seducer. Do you mean manipulator? Then sure. I think unhealthy 2's are pretty much universally recognized as manipulative, but I don't think that's necessarily synonymous with being a seducer.
 

ARET45

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True that type 2 is often more a 'seducer' than a helper. The 2 establishes a pride of place through taking on the role of the 'helper'. However they are not necessarily more 'helpful' than any of the other types. The two is often emotionally demonstrative, seductive, with a self-image of being 'important' or 'necessarily'.
 

Elfboy

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It seems to me that Naranjo never met nor observed a healthy version 2.

ah, the "this doesn't apply to me because I'm healthy" argument (he talks about all 9 types like this btw. you should see his writing on 8s!). it's more likely that you're mistyped
 

Elfboy

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Me? A seducer?
:rofl1:

It depends on what you mean by seducer. Do you mean manipulator? Then sure. I think unhealthy 2's are pretty much universally recognized as manipulative, but I don't think that's necessarily synonymous with being a seducer.

it's more than just manipulative. it's manipulative by appealing to desire. "if I give you what you want, you will give me what I want". contrary to the impression of most contemporary descriptions, 2s are far less guilt trip-y than they are made out to be. they would rather appeal to more base desires and wait for your to reciprocate on their own, becoming guilt trip-y only when this tactic fails. Sexual 2 is the most overtly Sexual 2 and uses his/her sex appeal in order to rack up "notches on the belt" and gain privilege and favor.
 

thoughtlost

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Me? A seducer?
:rofl1:

It depends on what you mean by seducer. Do you mean manipulator? Then sure. I think unhealthy 2's are pretty much universally recognized as manipulative, but I don't think that's necessarily synonymous with being a seducer.

haha yeah, it can be a funny way to describe some 2s, but there are some seductive 2s. Those are like the more intense 2s, from my experience. Like, they do some out there things for attention/admiration.
And, I could be wrong, but I feel like 2w3s are more likely to be "seductive" than 2w1s ...like even if they are not wearing sexy clothing or whatever you attribute to "seductive and sexy", their actions sometimes scream "look at me".

I have a friend who probably doesn't like to be called seductive ...but she is. She. totally. is. And not because she wears revealing clothes or anything like that. 2s can be super picky (cough*delusional*cough) about how they see themselves and only want to be seen in an ideal way, so ...she has deemed "seductive" to not be ideal and doesn't want to be called that ...even though everyone will tell you that she is!!! She'll even complain saying "why do people think I want to seduce them!?!?!" ...we just get frustrated with her because she doesn't realize that she makes people uncomfortable and doesn't get it when they want her to go away. Like, she isn't a porn star or anything ...but she has this ability to win people over (it doesn't work on everyone, though) ...with some kind of magic. She really doesn't realize she is doing it.

Edit:: and I do believe that there are healthy 2s out there.
 
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