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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nights and Days View Post
    Threes are the real seducers.
    But it's an empty seduction. The average 3 sells the idea of beauty or seduction for cool, calculating image reasons that border on narcissism or is narcissistic in an unhealthy 3.

    Only evolved 3s transcend this.

    Classic unhealthy 3w2 = Patrick Bateman.

    They want to be thought of as attractive, in women sometimes even more attractive than their mate.

    I have seen a description of a neurotic 3 woman being frigid unattainable porcelain doll seduction.

    Hollywood dreams of sex you will never have.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Being image types, it's not through doing, IMO, but identity, or how they see themselves. And with pride, it's not "if" they do something, but rather that they are a certain way & it should be recognized. So it's more like "I AM a great & loving parent & my kids SHOULD love me". They seem to give mainly as reminders of this, which is why the giving is often not much (because it is ultimately WHO they are that should win the affections). Average 2s promise more indirectly than they really give in reality.

    6 & 9 aren't seeking to earn love, agreed (perhaps support/allies or to facilitate merging, respectively). But the 2 doesn't seek to earn it consciously either. They feel entitled to it because of who they are (and they engage in a lot of positive self-talk to build that image). There's a difference between seduction & help - who generally benefits from which? The seducer does just enough to get what they want & justifies it by giving themselves a lot of value - they are like a "gift" to someone else then. Sometimes giving help is used to seduce, but 2s often make a show of it because of its purpose, which is to increase their own value & make them more attraction. So it's not tit-for-tat giving (I did X for specific person now specific person owes me Y), but creating an image & then expecting general affection, acknowledgment, attention, etc.
    Yes, like creating an image of a good or helpful person rather than a conventionally attractive or accomplished image like the three. And that's certainly different than wanting to merge or have allies/belong.

  3. #73
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    @skylights

    your typical 1 isn't necessarily theoretical (they would probably consider themselves rational, but it's often in a more no nonsense, common sensical, gut center-ish way)
    I agree with no-nonsense, common-sense, gut - but as for theoretical, maybe not in the sense of abstract, but they are typically more policy changers than hands-on people, while 2s are very direct-interaction oriented. Mother Teresa went right into the fray and started working directly with people. At the very least it indicates 1w2 over 1w9.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights
    But perhaps she was a 1 with a heavy 2 wing, and her 1 mainly manifested itself in her spiritual devotion
    which is very 1-ish (or Social 6, Social 7 or 9w1)
    I'm not sure this is right for Social 6. Keeper of the flame, yes, but that's more about preservation, stability, and fidelity than about individual belief and strict adherence.

    this isn't 2, it's just poetic.
    Talking about a beautiful death as being one where you are loved and wanted strikes me as very 2 (and image). If I were to give the other type equivalents, I would think a 1 would prefer to die an "upright" person, 3 would prefer to die being successful and admired, 4 would want to die having been fully themselves, 5 would want to die feeling knowledgeable, 6 would want to die feeling like they "belong" - which certainly can be worded similarly but isn't exactly the same - 7 would probably want to die being "free", 8 having death on their own terms, 9 having a peaceful/comfortable death.

    then I suggest providing examples of more captivating, dramatic and attention seeking individuals rather than pious, self-sacrificing and dutiful (1, Social 6)
    Again, I think you have Social 6 a little off - the reasoning is very different. It's really not "pious" as much as it is faithful - loyal to the cause. That is subtly different from being an advocate of the cause - a 6 with all their authority hangups actually might only feel so/so about the cause as it is enacted in the world, but they may cling to the ideal.

    But if you want a more realistic example, I'll use people I know in real life. I'm surprised that an N-dom dislikes a gestalt. I thought it would be more pleasing than specific examples.

    Type/Traits 1w9 1w2 2w1 2w3
    Career Merchandising technician Bank systems analyst Preschool teacher 2nd grade teacher
    Primary characteristics Idealistic, meticulous, dry humor Conscientious, organized, responsible Gregarious, organized, self-sacrificing Warm, flattering, showy
    Negative traits Can be rigid Can be intrusive Can play martyr Can be histrionic

  4. #74
    Parody Parrot meowington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Classic unhealthy 3w2 = Patrick Bateman.
    makes sense, especially the unhealthy part

  5. #75
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    Aww, I love typologycentral! This thread is explored so much more here than on Personalitycafe.

    I admit I haven't been the most thorough while reading through all these posts but I'm totally with @Urarienev, @OrangeAppled, @Elfboy and I also like seeing the 4ish glimpses with @five sounds.

    I'm enthusiastic about this thread because I know a male ISFP 2 sx who, had it not been for someone indicating 2s as seductive, would have left me quite confused as to where he falls on the enneagram. He's helpful, sure, but hardly. I've been with him the past year, and he definitely has needs that he tries to give to get. I'm not sure how healthy he is because I've definitely seen him utilize his "disintegration" to 8 to get his way. Probably not a very healthy chap. =/ This guy's a highly-skilled seducer with no reservations sexually speaking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy
    my experience of 2s is usually one of the following

    1) "I want to kill you!"
    2) (if female 2) "you are a bad ass bitch!"
    3) (if male 2) "you give me a boner! fuck me now!"
    He's that male 2 here. One time we got into a huge disagreement and we decided to end things between us. (Situation is: He says he wants to marry me, and I'm pretty sure I don't want to marry him but I still care a lot.) I asked him about his day and he wouldn't tell me, which made me upset since I tell him everything. His reasoning was he already gave me too much and now needs to withhold things. I pried and pried, finally after much tension, he whispered that he returned the ring he bought me. Immediately he said he felt remorse for telling me, and he played to my guilt and compassion like a champ. I'm 95% certain he never bought nor returned a ring, and that he was saying because he knows I try to take him seriously. That need for control reflects disintegration to 8 and further removal from 4-ish authenticity.

    That's some of my experience with 2 seduction and manipulation. I could go on and on, but I'll stop there.

  6. #76
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @ster
    male ISFP Sexual 2?
    so basically your friend is:

    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
    ENFP
    5w4>1w9>2w1 Sx/Sp
    SEE-Fi
    Papa Bear
    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  7. #77
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    @Elfboy, your image is broken!

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by ster View Post
    @Elfboy, your image is broken!
    It's Anakin skywalker.

  9. #79
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    @Nights and Days, thanks

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    As with all nine types, E2s come in three main instinctual types: Self Preservation, Social and Sexual. Do any of these sound selfless, helpful or altruistic to you? draw your own conclusions:

    Self Preservation 2

    according to Naranjo


    according to Maitri



    Social 2

    according to Naranjo


    according to Maitri



    Sexual 2

    according to Naranjo


    according to Maitri
    It's between Social and Sexual, but it's hard to say which based on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    such is the nature of all of Naranjo's descriptions (you should read his 8 description, he makes them out to be straight up sociopaths LOL)
    Oh yeah. He's into the dark twisted stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    3s are manipulators. 2s are as well, but they are specifically emotional manipulators. seduction implies evoking a strong response, playing with one's emotions. 3s can manipulate their image to get ahead, but, with the exception of Sexual 3 (which basically looks like a 2), 3s don't really grab people the way 2s do.

    seduction probably doesn't work well on you in the first place because triple reactive and Ni dominant (you're also a Feeler which is an advantage because, surprisingly, it is often the rational man/woman who is the most easily seduced)
    Indeed most people have their idea of what seduction is completely backwards. Seduction doesn't work with me, maybe because I'm a Ni dominant. But according to others, I'm quite skilled at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post

    I think many twos keep their pride hidden as much as possible, because they take pride in not appearing proud. I think it's safe to say that all image types pay a lot of attention to how they appear, and when you care about your image, there's always an element of manipulation involved. The person doing the manipulating might not be conscious of it, however, and others might not be, either.
    That is something I profundly identify with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    @Nights and Days @tsunderes

    the point of this thread is that this is NOT what type 2 is about (there are a few 2s like this, particularly women, but it's not really related to them being 2s)

    @skylights @brainheart
    the manner in which 2s seek love is not much "please love me" (that's more 9/phobic 6), but rather "I will make you DESIRE me!" (Sexual 2), "GLORIFY me!" (Social 2) or "Give me what I deserve" (Self Preservation 2)
    HA HA, that's how it is!

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    2s are not obvious about giving to get. A lot of the time they themselves are not even aware that this is what they are doing. Being too obvious about it might mean your ISFP is not a 2.


    I don't think being disappointed in the lack of pride that others have in their work has anything to do with being a 2. Hiding disappointments and not asking for reciprocation sounds like a 2.


    This is not moving to 8, it's just normal 2ish/1ish behavior.


    Not 8. Resigned and stubborn, sounds 9ish.



    2s don't acknowledge their own needs out of pride.
    2s become manipulative from this hidden neediness.
    Subtle is how they go about meeting their own needs.
    2s become 8s when their subtle, gentler methods have failed.
    Maybe they aren't being appreciated, they worked so hard and aren't getting what they deserve, it's not fair, no one listens to them, everything would fall apart without them, all they wanted was this little show of appreciation and that was just too much, huh? Well guess what, you aren't getting anything from me anymore, the gravy train stops here.
    Yes to everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by meowington View Post
    I'm oddly aware of other people's emotions towards myself.
    I share this trait. It's usuful but also uncanny and it puts me on edge sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    @brainheart


    here is where we disagree. most 2s do not see themselves as selfless/altruistic/goody-2-shoes. Social 2s view themselves much like 3s, Self Preservation 2s are egocentric (and likely view themselves in a similar manner to 7s) and Sexual 2s view themselves as risque and forbidden fruit.
    I was convinced I was a 3. But self image =/= reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The reason the "Helper" profiles exist is to appeal to the Pride of the 2s so they accurately self-type. However, I find sx-dom 2s less likely to see themselves in those profiles, but most 2s DO seem to feel they are giving in terms of love or affection. It's more that they are the gift rather than their helpful services.
    Precisely how I internally feel. I see myself as a gift in others people lives and to the world in general. I can't belive I just typed that, but it's true.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I see it as an understood bargain in which the 2 tries to help others and thereby expects their love in return, and the element of pride plays in with their identity/image of being the person who deserves love.
    No. It's about deserving love for being the amazing people they are, not about the good things they do.


    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I think the 2 mindset would be more like "If I can do ____ for my children, they will love me", or "If I can do ____ for my husband, I will earn his faithfulness". Whereas 6 and 9 don't really have that sense that love can be earned.
    Not in my experience. This servitude and sense of entitlement due to deeds doesn't sound like 2 at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Being image types, it's not through doing, IMO, but identity, or how they see themselves. And with pride, it's not "if" they do something, but rather that they are a certain way & it should be recognized. So it's more like "I AM a great & loving parent & my kids SHOULD love me". They seem to give mainly as reminders of this, which is why the giving is often not much (because it is ultimately WHO they are that should win the affections). Average 2s promise more indirectly than they really give in reality.

    6 & 9 aren't seeking to earn love, agreed (perhaps support/allies or to facilitate merging, respectively). But the 2 doesn't seek to earn it consciously either. They feel entitled to it because of who they are (and they engage in a lot of positive self-talk to build that image). There's a difference between seduction & help - who generally benefits from which? The seducer does just enough to get what they want & justifies it by giving themselves a lot of value - they are like a "gift" to someone else then. Sometimes giving help is used to seduce, but 2s often make a show of it because of its purpose, which is to increase their own value & make them more attraction. So it's not tit-for-tat giving (I did X for specific person now specific person owes me Y), but creating an image & then expecting general affection, acknowledgment, attention, etc.
    YES.


    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Hm, okay. I think sometimes it's hard for me to separate 3's veneer and pride in accomplishment from entitlement and self-promotion. Maybe not self-promotion so much as "brand" promotion.


    I tend to think like... teacher's pet. Or a really sweet and caring but slightly firm teacher or nurse. Or Mother Teresa - "The hunger for love is much more difficult to remove than the hunger for bread." I think it's like giving and caring but with a tone of morality and sacrifice for the desire to be good.
    Jesus, NO. Mother Teresa was no type 2. And that quotation is pure cheesy 2 stereotype.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post

    nooo, Mother Teresa was a 1. she doesn't fit Social 2 (Ambition), Sexual 2 (Seduction/Aggression) or Self Preservation 2 (Entitled Princess) at all.
    Whatever she was ( I do think she was a 1), she wasn't a 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I have always seen her referenced as a 2w1, though having never known her personally, I don't really feel like I can make a final claim. Nevertheless, if she was a 1, she was a very open, accepting, and less theoretical 1. But perhaps she was a 1 with a heavy 2 wing, and her 1 mainly manifested itself in her spiritual devotion. I could certainly see that. Some of her quotes strike me as more 1 - "I was to leave the convent and help the poor while living among them. It was an order. To fail would have been to break the faith." - but her work with people is so consummately 2 - "A beautiful death is for people who lived like animals to die like angels—loved and wanted" . Regardless, I think that she is closer to the "flavor" of a 2/1 as opposed to 2/3. My goal was not to give exact examples with logical reasoning but to provide a gestalt of what 2/1 flavor would be like through examples of feel.
    Doesn't strike me as a 2 thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I am going to have to disagree that all 2s are seducers. Maybe sexual 2s, but not all 2s.

    In fact @brainheart is right. They want to be loved and needed. That can easily be social, family or emotional "seduction"...if you don't necessarily mean sexual seduction that's fine.

    I am more inclined to think you are basing this on 2s you were attracted to or something.
    He didn't. Seduction is not about sex.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post

    Talking about a beautiful death as being one where you are loved and wanted strikes me as very 2 (and image). If I were to give the other type equivalents, I would think a 1 would prefer to die an "upright" person, 3 would prefer to die being successful and admired, 4 would want to die having been fully themselves, 5 would want to die feeling knowledgeable, 6 would want to die feeling like they "belong" - which certainly can be worded similarly but isn't exactly the same - 7 would probably want to die being "free", 8 having death on their own terms, 9 having a peaceful/comfortable death.
    Then I'm afraid you don't understand type 2. And that quote doesn't say image type either. It's about being idealistic and phylosophical about life in general, image types focus on the self.

    Great thread. The Ennegram literature scene needs fresh authors.

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