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  1. #51
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I see it as an understood bargain in which the 2 tries to help others and thereby expects their love in return, and the element of pride plays in with their identity/image of being the person who deserves love.

    I think the "what I deserve" on the part of the sp 2 is a lot more muted, though, especially with 2w1, and soc is more about social acknowledgement than glorification. As far as I understand most 2s simply desire acknowledgement of their effort to earn love. As an image type, 2 creates an image that they are proud of... I doubt any 2 would be able to see themselves in the statements you list above, because they are too conscious and not idealistic.

    I think the 2 mindset would be more like "If I can do ____ for my children, they will love me", or "If I can do ____ for my husband, I will earn his faithfulness". Whereas 6 and 9 don't really have that sense that love can be earned.
    Being image types, it's not through doing, IMO, but identity, or how they see themselves. And with pride, it's not "if" they do something, but rather that they are a certain way & it should be recognized. So it's more like "I AM a great & loving parent & my kids SHOULD love me". They seem to give mainly as reminders of this, which is why the giving is often not much (because it is ultimately WHO they are that should win the affections). Average 2s promise more indirectly than they really give in reality.

    6 & 9 aren't seeking to earn love, agreed (perhaps support/allies or to facilitate merging, respectively). But the 2 doesn't seek to earn it consciously either. They feel entitled to it because of who they are (and they engage in a lot of positive self-talk to build that image). There's a difference between seduction & help - who generally benefits from which? The seducer does just enough to get what they want & justifies it by giving themselves a lot of value - they are like a "gift" to someone else then. Sometimes giving help is used to seduce, but 2s often make a show of it because of its purpose, which is to increase their own value & make them more attraction. So it's not tit-for-tat giving (I did X for specific person now specific person owes me Y), but creating an image & then expecting general affection, acknowledgment, attention, etc.
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  2. #52
    Blind Guardian Haven's Avatar
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    It can be both, on one hand there's the sense of constantly earning someone's love and never quite doing enough (false humility), and on the other hand there's the sense of deserving (outright pride). It depends on the 2, like phobic and counter phobic for 6s.
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  3. #53
    A window to the soul
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    I got y'alls reps, and I get it; y'all are right...

    @Urarienev, perhaps I was too harsh; I know it; you know it, and everyone knows it. I apologize.

  4. #54
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    2s are not obvious about giving to get. A lot of the time they themselves are not even aware that this is what they are doing. Being too obvious about it might mean your ISFP is not a 2.
    Yea, I know two's aren't obvious about it. But she confides in me, and tells me these things in private. She doesn't openly say it every time she wants appreciation or anything, but she has hinted in obvious ways. Such as saying "Oh I love Christmas, cause I love getting gifts."

    Please try not to take this out of context...but an ISFP in general is going to "look" more "selfish" than an ISFJ. (At least to the ppl that really know them.)


    I don't think being disappointed in the lack of pride that others have in their work has anything to do with being a 2. Hiding disappointments and not asking for reciprocation sounds like a 2.
    She is the type of person that can build herself up, by thinking that others are not doing/giving all they got, like she does. Therefore making her indispensable (in her eyes). She's so dom.

    It was just an example...and maybe a lousy one at that. But she definitely has a way of building herself up with her Fi. That was more of the point I was trying to make.

    This is not moving to 8, it's just normal 2ish/1ish behavior.
    Interesting. I guess you could be right. I'm not sure.

    I did ask her how she goes to 8 and I thought about how the ISFJ goes to 8, and it seems like they only do that when cornered. They still despise confrontation....so they avoid at all costs...but when backed up into a corner, that seems to be the only time they react in an 8 way.


    Not 8. Resigned and stubborn, sounds 9ish.
    You're right, she is 294 tritype. (Not 100% sure about the 4...but..) She definitely identifies herself as a 2. And I know that she goes to 9 very quickly, because she does not like confrontation at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post

    Sexual 2 (the woman. the man is a Sexual 4):

    I picture something like this:

    imo, yes (though 2w3 is probably more common in general)
    Yep, still having a problem getting the sexual vibe.

    I think my problem is that I can really only see a 2w3 male being that obvious.

    I can't see females

    It'll probably just take time though.

    Also I wanted to say that I guess I can see the "seduction" in all types, but the helping is a form of seduction. Which is why I think it still applies. Don't you?


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The reason the "Helper" profiles exist is to appeal to the Pride of the 2s so they accurately self-type.
    Aww. Poor 2's.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    They feel entitled to it because of who they are (and they engage in a lot of positive self-talk to build that image).
    What you've said here and in your other posts, are my understandings of 2's as well. (Even though I haven't properly expressed that at all lol.)

    Anyways, reading this particular post makes me realize why 2's are so optimistic. It's as if they have to be to hold up their identity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    It can be both, on one hand there's the sense of constantly earning someone's love and never quite doing enough (false humility), and on the other hand there's the sense of deserving (outright pride). It depends on the 2, like phobic and counter phobic for 6s.
    This is interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by A window to the soul View Post
    I got y'alls reps, and I get it; y'all are right...

    @Urarienev, perhaps I was too harsh; I know it; you know it, and everyone knows it. I apologize.
    Apology accepted

    And to be honest I think it's a two way street. It's not like I have never been called out like that before. But I really wasn't playing dumb, just so you know.

    I honestly would love to know how to communicate better in a conflict like that. Cause I get told the same stuff every time. :/
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    @brainheart

    never said it did
    ah, ok. sounded to me like you were.


    obvious to them: no
    obvious to me: usually (reading people is far easier than people make it out to be)
    Maybe to you but not to a lot of people.

    here is where we disagree. most 2s do not see themselves as selfless/altruistic/goody-2-shoes. Social 2s view themselves much like 3s, Self Preservation 2s are egocentric (and likely view themselves in a similar manner to 7s) and Sexual 2s view themselves as risque and forbidden fruit.
    I said 'many (not all)', not most. I like what @OrangeAppled said. It's funny because I was thinking the same thing about The Helper title but didn't say it. I think a lot of the names for the types are like that- for the type to identify with initially so that they will read more and then get to the deeper, messier, less flattering but more helpful aspects of the enneagram. (That said, Lover or Giver might be better for two.)

    Anyway, I think orangeappled and I are essentially on the same wavelength when it comes to twos. Being a fellow image type and having a line to two, I think we can kind of get it in a way non-image/ non-connecting types might not. We image types are a little weird in our motivations/self perceptions.

    sounds about right
    Good.

  6. #56
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    so how does e2 seduction differ from e6 ingratiation? particularly in males?

  7. #57
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post
    so how does e2 seduction differ from e6 ingratiation? particularly in males?
    like I said, it's the difference between "please love me" and "I will MAKE you love me".
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  8. #58
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The reason the "Helper" profiles exist is to appeal to the Pride of the 2s so they accurately self-type. However, I find sx-dom 2s less likely to see themselves in those profiles, but most 2s DO seem to feel they are giving in terms of love or affection. It's more that they are the gift rather than their helpful services.

    I notice some ENFXs type as 4 when they may be 2 because they see themselves as being sort of exotic and romantic and having depth. But it's prideful, not having the poor self image & melancholy of the 4.
    this is so true for me. "helping" people is much less what i relate to than "giving" to them or "loving" them. when i care about someone, it's a very intense whole-self kind of loving. this did make me question if i were 2 or 4 because of the depth of it, the internal locus of feeling rather than external. i feel deeply for people, and want to give that to them. i don't feel as melancholy about my feelings because i perceive them as beautiful and am excited to give. it's like i want to show others themselves through my eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    once again, the key is in the word "lovable". the type of love the 2 is looking for is much more intimate and, for lack of a better word, id-ish, not "yay! people appreciate me because I'm helpful!"
    the whole "helpful" thing really threw me off with 2. i feel like it's kind of demeaning to be loved for being helpful, like you're the hired help and people love that you're there to fold their clothes or something. really an off-putting image. intimate is much more fitting.

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    I don't see how what I say contradicts that. I said they take pride in how they get that love. That's decidedly different than 'please love me'. I think the hallmark of a two is that they expect something back in return when they give, even if it's just a thank you note. It's like, 'if I'm going to love you, you'd better acknowledge that love and love me back.'
    ok, i know it's always said that 2s won't admit their selfishness to themselves, so i feel stupid even claiming this, but i really and truly don't think i expect something in return when i give. maybe you're speaking specifically to 2w3. as 2w1, it's like for myself. it makes me feel good to love others because it often makes them feel better about themselves. and like i said before, i often have the idea that i can see the good in people that they can't see for themselves, so showing them that is what is satisfying to me. for the general populous, the knowledge that there is good in the world both within and outside of themselves is my aim. but i'm not frustrated if i don't see that happen for them. i just kind of trust that if i live my life that way, it'll touch a few people.

    with romantic love, i of course expect to be seen for who i am and to be connected with intimately. this is what makes me feel 4-ish honestly. i'm aware of the depth of my feelings and want that to be touched and shared. but like orangeappled said, i guess i don't feel so melancholy about my feelings as i do in love with them and eager to share them.

    That said, I think you're making this into too conscious of a process as far as twos go. Neuroses aren't always so obvious- especially to the person who is under the spell of them. I'm pretty sure many (not all) twos perceive themselves as selfless, generous, altruistic people, and that's where the deception of the self image can come in- because they aren't doing it selflessly, they're mainly doing it to get something in return. The social wants public accolades, the self pres wants more material sort of comforts, and the sexual wants to be like Helen of Troy.
    hm, ok maybe wanting to be desirable comes from my 2-fix. i am pretty image-conscious (about my body/looks) but tend to go for a laid-back kinda artsy/earthy/funky look more than something that would be more appealing to more people. in this way, i think i'm seeking to be attractive to someone that will be attracted to what's inside me. it's like expressing myself outwardly so that i kind of pop up on the radars of the kinds of people i want in my life. i do the same when scanning groups. looking for people who outwardly look like they might be compatible with me inwardly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    I know an ISFP 2w1. sp last

    And I know an ISFJ 2w1 sp/sx.

    The ISFP has a much harder time accepting that she's a 2. She absolutely knows that she gives just to get. And it shows with her WAY more than with the ISFJ.

    They both are overachievers and go above and beyond what anyone does. You would never know that they are really doing all of this for themselves.

    The ISFJ wants to help because he wants to make others happy. And in doing so...he is happy, and this is because of his Fe. He wants everyone to be happy and maintain that atmosphere so he can be happy.

    The ISFP is much more apt to do things because she wants it reciprocated more directly. She does have pride in her work, but she also is more disappointed when others don't show the same pride. She more openly expresses that she wants reciprocation (not always by words.) Where the Fe hinders the ISFJ from admitting that and asking for it.

    Now on the other hand, the ISFJ's Ti will come right out when he's gone to 8. It is like this disciplinary, strict, rigid side is completely shown. He will not budge on subjects, and he will use shame (Fe) to get a point across.

    The ISFP, however, is more like "I'm done." and shrugs. She is not cold at all compared to the 8 that comes out in the ISFJ. She just gets to a certain boiling point of where she can't take the resentment that's built up and that's it, she has had it with whatever subject it may be.

    For example the past 3 yrs she has been responsible to drive ppl home on new yrs eve and this year she simply said, "I'm not doing it." And once she's made up her mind, that's it.

    That's the only 8 that I see come out of her.



    Yea, but out of all of the 2's I know (5)... only one of them is not subtle about this demand to be loved. And her maturity level is very low.

    A two does not want to admit that they are doing these many things in the name of pride. They don't want to come off as manipulating, even though they do it everyday. lol

    They seduce, yes, but it is extremely subtle in most cases.

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    Indispensable is the key word here.
    thank you for this. yeah, i get the feeling this experience isn't with sexual 2s which is why i have a hard time relating. i get actually quite bothered when i feel like people "need" me. i want to be free to give when i feel lead to, but not bound to servitude. and when i feel like i get stuck in a service role when my heart's no longer in it, i can become resentful and usually start looking for an out, or just get lazy and do it half-heartedly. that's also what made me feel 4-ish. sharing my feelings with others and having them share theirs back is what satisfies me. working to help people drains me and makes me feel like i need time for myself afterwards.
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  9. #59
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Anyway, I think orangeappled and I are essentially on the same wavelength when it comes to twos. Being a fellow image type and having a line to two, I think we can kind of get it in a way non-image/ non-connecting types might not. We image types are a little weird in our motivations/self perceptions.
    This is probably very true.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Being image types, it's not through doing, IMO, but identity, or how they see themselves. And with pride, it's not "if" they do something, but rather that they are a certain way & it should be recognized. So it's more like "I AM a great & loving parent & my kids SHOULD love me". They seem to give mainly as reminders of this, which is why the giving is often not much (because it is ultimately WHO they are that should win the affections). Average 2s promise more indirectly than they really give in reality.
    That makes sense. I suspect my perspective has also been impacted by knowing more SJ 2s than any other kind, as SJs tend to be doers.

    6 & 9 aren't seeking to earn love, agreed (perhaps support/allies or to facilitate merging, respectively). But the 2 doesn't seek to earn it consciously either. They feel entitled to it because of who they are (and they engage in a lot of positive self-talk to build that image). There's a difference between seduction & help - who generally benefits from which? The seducer does just enough to get what they want & justifies it by giving themselves a lot of value - they are like a "gift" to someone else then. Sometimes giving help is used to seduce, but 2s often make a show of it because of its purpose, which is to increase their own value & make them more attraction. So it's not tit-for-tat giving (I did X for specific person now specific person owes me Y), but creating an image & then expecting general affection, acknowledgment, attention, etc.
    This is interesting. I have definitely seen this in action but I thought this was more of a 3w2 thing, the building language and the expectation, rather than a 2 thing. I'm still struggling to see the 2w1s I know as people who see themselves in such a high light. I can see them expecting affection and acknowledgement, but not showy attention or praise or "glory".

  10. #60
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @skylights
    This is interesting. I have definitely seen this in action but I thought this was more of a 3w2 thing, the building language and the expectation, rather than a 2 thing.
    many people think this about 3s, but in reality, most 3s are more down to earth and seek approval via accomplishments rather than showy self-promotion (they do self-promote, but it's very subtle and, usually, indirect). unlike 2s and 7s, 3s do NOT feel a sense of inherent entitlement. they believe they must earn their keep and have the credentials and list of accomplishments to back up their talk.

    I'm still struggling to see the 2w1s I know as people who see themselves in such a high light. I can see them expecting affection and acknowledgement, but not showy attention or praise or "glory".
    Social 2s are all about glory and ALL 2s are about showy attention, but honestly, I have a hard time picturing 2w1 in general. they come across a bit more critical than the other subtype, perhaps more martyr-y, but 1 and 2 are very different types, and I have trouble imagining how they come together.
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