As with all nine types, E2s come in three main instinctual types: Self Preservation, Social and Sexual. Do any of these sound selfless, helpful or altruistic to you? draw your own conclusions:
Self Preservation 2
according to Naranjo
according to Maitri
Social 2
according to Naranjo
according to Maitri
Sexual 2
according to Naranjo
according to Maitri
It's between Social and Sexual, but it's hard to say which based on this.
such is the nature of all of Naranjo's descriptions (you should read his 8 description, he makes them out to be straight up sociopaths LOL)
Oh yeah. He's into the dark twisted stuff.
3s are manipulators. 2s are as well, but they are specifically emotional manipulators. seduction implies evoking a strong response, playing with one's emotions. 3s can manipulate their image to get ahead, but, with the exception of Sexual 3 (which basically looks like a 2), 3s don't really grab people the way 2s do.
seduction probably doesn't work well on you in the first place because triple reactive and Ni dominant (you're also a Feeler which is an advantage because, surprisingly, it is often the rational man/woman who is the most easily seduced)
Indeed most people have their idea of what seduction is completely backwards. Seduction doesn't work with me, maybe because I'm a Ni dominant. But according to others, I'm quite skilled at it.
I think many twos keep their pride hidden as much as possible, because they take pride in not appearing proud. I think it's safe to say that all image types pay a lot of attention to how they appear, and when you care about your image, there's always an element of manipulation involved. The person doing the manipulating might not be conscious of it, however, and others might not be, either.
That is something I profundly identify with.
[MENTION=15318]Nights and Days[/MENTION] [MENTION=20868]tsunderes[/MENTION]
the point of this thread is that this is NOT what type 2 is about (there are a few 2s like this, particularly women, but it's not really related to them being 2s)
[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] [MENTION=7140]brainheart[/MENTION]
the manner in which 2s seek love is not much "please love me" (that's more 9/phobic 6), but rather "I will make you DESIRE me!" (Sexual 2), "GLORIFY me!" (Social 2) or "Give me what I deserve" (Self Preservation 2)
HA HA, that's how it is!
2s are not obvious about giving to get. A lot of the time they themselves are not even aware that this is what they are doing. Being too obvious about it might mean your ISFP is not a 2.
I don't think being disappointed in the lack of pride that others have in their work has anything to do with being a 2. Hiding disappointments and not asking for reciprocation sounds like a 2.
This is not moving to 8, it's just normal 2ish/1ish behavior.
Not 8. Resigned and stubborn, sounds 9ish.
2s don't acknowledge their own needs out of pride.
2s become manipulative from this hidden neediness.
Subtle is how they go about meeting their own needs.
2s become 8s when their subtle, gentler methods have failed.
Maybe they aren't being appreciated, they worked so hard and aren't getting what they deserve, it's not fair, no one listens to them, everything would fall apart without them, all they wanted was this little show of appreciation and that was just too much, huh? Well guess what, you aren't getting anything from me anymore, the gravy train stops here.
Yes to everything.
I'm oddly aware of other people's emotions towards myself.
I share this trait. It's usuful but also uncanny and it puts me on edge sometimes.
[MENTION=7140]brainheart[/MENTION]
here is where we disagree. most 2s do not see themselves as selfless/altruistic/goody-2-shoes. Social 2s view themselves much like 3s, Self Preservation 2s are egocentric (and likely view themselves in a similar manner to 7s) and Sexual 2s view themselves as risque and forbidden fruit.
I was convinced I was a 3. But self image =/= reality.
The reason the "Helper" profiles exist is to appeal to the Pride of the 2s so they accurately self-type. However, I find sx-dom 2s less likely to see themselves in those profiles, but most 2s DO seem to feel they are giving in terms of love or affection. It's more that they are the gift rather than their helpful services.
Precisely how I internally feel. I see myself as a gift in others people lives and to the world in general. I can't belive I just typed that, but it's true.
I see it as an understood bargain in which the 2 tries to help others and thereby expects their love in return, and the element of pride plays in with their identity/image of being the person who deserves love.
No. It's about deserving love for being the amazing people they are, not about the good things they do.
I think the 2 mindset would be more like "If I can do ____ for my children, they will love me", or "If I can do ____ for my husband, I will earn his faithfulness". Whereas 6 and 9 don't really have that sense that love can be earned.
Not in my experience. This servitude and sense of entitlement due to deeds doesn't sound like 2 at all.
Being image types, it's not through doing, IMO, but identity, or how they see themselves. And with pride, it's not "if" they do something, but rather that they are a certain way & it should be recognized. So it's more like "I AM a great & loving parent & my kids SHOULD love me". They seem to give mainly as reminders of this, which is why the giving is often not much (because it is ultimately WHO they are that should win the affections). Average 2s promise more indirectly than they really give in reality.
6 & 9 aren't seeking to earn love, agreed (perhaps support/allies or to facilitate merging, respectively). But the 2 doesn't seek to earn it consciously either. They feel entitled to it because of who they are (and they engage in a lot of positive self-talk to build that image). There's a difference between seduction & help - who generally benefits from which? The seducer does just enough to get what they want & justifies it by giving themselves a lot of value - they are like a "gift" to someone else then. Sometimes giving help is used to seduce, but 2s often make a show of it because of its purpose, which is to increase their own value & make them more attraction. So it's not tit-for-tat giving (I did X for specific person now specific person owes me Y), but creating an image & then expecting general affection, acknowledgment, attention, etc.
YES.
Hm, okay. I think sometimes it's hard for me to separate 3's veneer and pride in accomplishment from entitlement and self-promotion. Maybe not self-promotion so much as "brand" promotion.
I tend to think like... teacher's pet. Or a really sweet and caring but slightly firm teacher or nurse. Or Mother Teresa - "The hunger for love is much more difficult to remove than the hunger for bread." I think it's like giving and caring but with a tone of morality and sacrifice for the desire to be good.
Jesus, NO. Mother Teresa was no type 2. And that quotation is pure cheesy 2 stereotype.
nooo, Mother Teresa was a 1. she doesn't fit Social 2 (Ambition), Sexual 2 (Seduction/Aggression) or Self Preservation 2 (Entitled Princess) at all.
Whatever she was ( I do think she was a 1), she wasn't a 2.
I have always seen her referenced as a 2w1, though having never known her personally, I don't really feel like I can make a final claim. Nevertheless, if she was a 1, she was a very open, accepting, and less theoretical 1. But perhaps she was a 1 with a heavy 2 wing, and her 1 mainly manifested itself in her spiritual devotion. I could certainly see that. Some of her quotes strike me as more 1 - "I was to leave the convent and help the poor while living among them. It was an order. To fail would have been to break the faith." - but her work with people is so consummately 2 - "A beautiful death is for people who lived like animals to die like angels—loved and wanted" . Regardless, I think that she is closer to the "flavor" of a 2/1 as opposed to 2/3. My goal was not to give exact examples with logical reasoning but to provide a gestalt of what 2/1 flavor would be like through examples of feel.
Doesn't strike me as a 2 thought.
I am going to have to disagree that all 2s are seducers. Maybe sexual 2s, but not all 2s.
In fact [MENTION=7140]brainheart[/MENTION] is right. They want to be loved and needed. That can easily be social, family or emotional "seduction"...if you don't necessarily mean sexual seduction that's fine.
I am more inclined to think you are basing this on 2s you were attracted to or something.
He didn't. Seduction is not about sex.
Talking about a beautiful death as being one where you are loved and wanted strikes me as very 2 (and image). If I were to give the other type equivalents, I would think a 1 would prefer to die an "upright" person, 3 would prefer to die being successful and admired, 4 would want to die having been fully themselves, 5 would want to die feeling knowledgeable, 6 would want to die feeling like they "belong" - which certainly can be worded similarly but isn't exactly the same - 7 would probably want to die being "free", 8 having death on their own terms, 9 having a peaceful/comfortable death.
Then I'm afraid you don't understand type 2. And that quote doesn't say image type either. It's about being idealistic and phylosophical about life in general, image types focus on the self.
Great thread. The Ennegram literature scene needs fresh authors.
