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  1. #21
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Twos want to be loved more than anything, so they will do what's needed to be loved. How that pans out is going to depend on the person, as well as how they are raised/ their environment (not to mention their instinct). They seem to take pride in how they get that love. So a two who gets love by helping is going to be proud of their image as 'helper' while a two who gets love by being seductive is going to be proud of their image as 'seducer'. And so on.

    I think many twos keep their pride hidden as much as possible, because they take pride in not appearing proud. I think it's safe to say that all image types pay a lot of attention to how they appear, and when you care about your image, there's always an element of manipulation involved. The person doing the manipulating might not be conscious of it, however, and others might not be, either.

    I think a lot of twos are not fond of their line to eight, just as many fours dislike their line to two. It can feel like you're a different person when you switch to that mode. All lines of disintegration can feel like that. But there can also be a positive relationship with the disintegration line when healthier, when it becomes more mature than infantile.
    I think this is really good analysis, brainheart.

    My mom's a pretty textbook 2w1 as far as I can tell. She took an Enneagram seminar at work and came out as 9, then 2, but we went through her papers together and she felt that 2 fit her better, which I think is true too. Her instinct variant is almost certainly sp/so. I don't really see her much as a "seducer", but she's a very smooth social persuader. She draws people into certain paths of action more than she draws them into herself. Taking on others' burdens is like breathing for her - and it makes her upset if you try to stop her from doing it, like she perceives it as an inconvenience for you to try to help her. She can get pushy if she thinks her strategy is a good one or if she really feels like something would be good for you, so I guess her pride would mostly fall into the "assertiveness" category.

    I think there are a lot of kinds of each enneatype. Very influenced by wing and variant, and by MBTI, cultures, a number of other factors. I see what you're saying @Elfboy about not letting that single image of the dutiful helper take over the type description. My mom actually does happen to be the type of 2 that basically word-for-word IS one of "these saintly, dutiful helpers who are constantly putting the needs of others before their own". She's a 2w1 sp/so ESFJ, and that all fits with that description. But a 2w3 sx/so ENFP could be totally, totally different.

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart
    Also, I want to know what Naranjo means when he calls that self pres two description 'fourish'. That sure doesn't sound like four to me
    I am not really sure I understand this one either. I actually really don't feel like "me-first" is a very good description of any e2, because everyone technically is me-first and a 2 externally is very not me-first. The way I'd identify an Sp-first 2 is they're a 2 and their primary concerns are resources, stability, and comfort. IME that tends to manifest in terms of trying to take care of others' Sp needs as well.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    @Elfboy

    Good OP. I think the myth that 2s are these nicey-nice helpers comes, in part, from Riso and Hudson's work. They did a lot to eliminate the 2s' powers of seduction and the strings they attach in favor of these martyrish servants who obsess over "really really good things", like narrowly-defined love. I've come to this opinion from reading about a dozen books over the last year, back to back. Twos have so much more to them than their "helpful" side, and it's a shame for the type as well as the individuals who may overlook their type by consequence.

    I've got two very different Twos in my life right now--one is my landlady, who is unhealthy, and about whom I may eventually dedicate an advice thread. She has the Fe-laced goodness and big smiles, combined with the excessive giving of small gifts. She supports me being wild and crazy and having "fun". Yet you can sense her need to control--she has inserted herself into my personal life to a severe degree that it's taken me enormous restraint not to tell her off and/or vomit from the sheer discomfort of it. Her own children fled the house because under her nicey-nice exterior is a ruthless iron fist that she refuses to see. She asserts this by giving, but believe me, she's no true "helper". Not by a long shot--actually, the truly formidable thing is that you can't really do that much to refuse. (Luckily, she is a rather unhealthy version of her type, and one from whom I will eventually depart.)

    My driver is another Fe-dom 2, and he's everything she is not. Something I've noticed about him is that he, like my landlady, really does support "freedom", even self-indulgence. He hasn't seduced me or anything, but he does go a long way to help people out. He's become assertive enough in his life to draw lines and make his needs known without dropping hints, however, which I guess working in an international tourist industry is wont to make you do. He still does that, "Hey, I did all this work for YOU. All this work for YOU" thing, but he's neither nicey-nice, nor is he overly manipulative. I wouldn't have been able to figure him out based on Riso and Hudson alone.

    And that's what I think about it.

  3. #23
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    So I'm still trying to understand my heart fix, and 2w1 is under consideration. I see a lot of pairing e2 with Fe, which I don't use. Does anyone have any experiences with Fi users and e2 (especially 2w1)?

    Also, another aspect of 2 that I'm having a hard time relating to is disintegration to 8. Any 2s who can shed some light on what that looks/feels like for you?
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  4. #24
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    I thought 2 was the overbearing mother or girlfriend who was like, love meeeee!

    I haven't met any male 2's I've found seductive more like unauthentic braggarts(pretty sure he's a 2w3), but that's just my limited experience.

    The only guys I've found irresistibly seductive have been 7's and 9w8's.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsunderes View Post
    I thought 2 was the overbearing mother or girlfriend who was like, love meeeee!
    That's the image I have in my head as well.

    I'm not sure if it's just a few bad apples for me or if it's all of them.

  6. #26
    Senior Member You's Avatar
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    I had myself a 2 year experience with a 2w3 sx/so and the girl was fucking brutal, dude. Absolute brat. She didn't spoil the bunch. In general, I won't see signs of a 2 and see red, but in my experience when a seductress goes unhealthy (like most types) just watch out because you are bound to get hurt if you don't prep yourself for the emotional manipulation coated with image manipulation, whirlwinding you in a drown of victimization, repelling of guilt and all those things Narajo warns you abut in disintegration. Its one wild power trip that if you've got a sense of humor you'll look back and laugh at.

    But I'm sure a good one is great person to have around whenever you wanna throw a party or organize some fun.
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  7. #27
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @Nights and Days @tsunderes

    the point of this thread is that this is NOT what type 2 is about (there are a few 2s like this, particularly women, but it's not really related to them being 2s)

    @skylights @brainheart
    the manner in which 2s seek love is not much "please love me" (that's more 9/phobic 6), but rather "I will make you DESIRE me!" (Sexual 2), "GLORIFY me!" (Social 2) or "Give me what I deserve" (Self Preservation 2)
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  8. #28
    ndovjtjcaqidthi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    the manner in which 2s seek love is not much "please love me" (that's more 9/phobic 6)
    Makes sense.
    Likes bundleofsunshine liked this post

  9. #29
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    So I'm still trying to understand my heart fix, and 2w1 is under consideration. I see a lot of pairing e2 with Fe, which I don't use. Does anyone have any experiences with Fi users and e2 (especially 2w1)?

    Also, another aspect of 2 that I'm having a hard time relating to is disintegration to 8. Any 2s who can shed some light on what that looks/feels like for you?
    I know an ISFP 2w1. sp last

    And I know an ISFJ 2w1 sp/sx.

    The ISFP has a much harder time accepting that she's a 2. She absolutely knows that she gives just to get. And it shows with her WAY more than with the ISFJ.

    They both are overachievers and go above and beyond what anyone does. You would never know that they are really doing all of this for themselves.

    The ISFJ wants to help because he wants to make others happy. And in doing so...he is happy, and this is because of his Fe. He wants everyone to be happy and maintain that atmosphere so he can be happy.

    The ISFP is much more apt to do things because she wants it reciprocated more directly. She does have pride in her work, but she also is more disappointed when others don't show the same pride. She more openly expresses that she wants reciprocation (not always by words.) Where the Fe hinders the ISFJ from admitting that and asking for it.

    Now on the other hand, the ISFJ's Ti will come right out when he's gone to 8. It is like this disciplinary, strict, rigid side is completely shown. He will not budge on subjects, and he will use shame (Fe) to get a point across.

    The ISFP, however, is more like "I'm done." and shrugs. She is not cold at all compared to the 8 that comes out in the ISFJ. She just gets to a certain boiling point of where she can't take the resentment that's built up and that's it, she has had it with whatever subject it may be.

    For example the past 3 yrs she has been responsible to drive ppl home on new yrs eve and this year she simply said, "I'm not doing it." And once she's made up her mind, that's it.

    That's the only 8 that I see come out of her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    @Nights and Days @tsunderes

    the point of this thread is that this is NOT what type 2 is about (there are a few 2s like this, particularly women, but it's not really related to them being 2s)

    @skylights @brainheart
    the manner in which 2s seek love is not much "please love me" (that's more 9/phobic 6), but rather "I will make you DESIRE me!" (Sexual 2), "GLORIFY me!" (Social 2) or "Give me what I deserve" (Self Preservation 2)
    Yea, but out of all of the 2's I know (5)... only one of them is not subtle about this demand to be loved. And her maturity level is very low.

    A two does not want to admit that they are doing these many things in the name of pride. They don't want to come off as manipulating, even though they do it everyday. lol

    They seduce, yes, but it is extremely subtle in most cases.

    From Ocean Moonshine:

    They want to occupy a central position in the lives of chosen others, and they accomplish this by being “indispensable.” From the standpoint of the Two, it is always others who are needy and dependent, not the Two. In reality, the situation is a bit more complex, as Twos also have needs. They need to be appreciated; they need to be needed; they need to receive a considerable amount of attention and gratitude.
    Indispensable is the key word here.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    I know an ISFP 2w1. sp last

    And I know an ISFJ 2w1 sp/sx.

    The ISFP has a much harder time accepting that she's a 2. She absolutely knows that she gives just to get. And it shows with her WAY more than with the ISFJ.

    They both are overachievers and go above and beyond what anyone does. You would never know that they are really doing all of this for themselves.

    The ISFJ wants to help because he wants to make others happy. And in doing so...he is happy, and this is because of his Fe. He wants everyone to be happy and maintain that atmosphere so he can be happy.

    The ISFP is much more apt to do things because she wants it reciprocated more directly. She does have pride in her work, but she also is more disappointed when others don't show the same pride. She more openly expresses that she wants reciprocation (not always by words.) Where the Fe hinders the ISFJ from admitting that and asking for it.

    Now on the other hand, the ISFJ's Ti will come right out when he's gone to 8. It is like this disciplinary, strict, rigid side is completely shown. He will not budge on subjects, and he will use shame (Fe) to get a point across.

    The ISFP, however, is more like "I'm done." and shrugs. She is not cold at all compared to the 8 that comes out in the ISFJ. She just gets to a certain boiling point of where she can't take the resentment that's built up and that's it, she has had it with whatever subject it may be.

    For example the past 3 yrs she has been responsible to drive ppl home on new yrs eve and this year she simply said, "I'm not doing it." And once she's made up her mind, that's it.

    That's the only 8 that I see come out of her.



    Yea, but out of all of the 2's I know (5)... only one of them is not subtle about this demand to be loved. And her maturity level is very low.

    A two does not want to admit that they are doing these many things in the name of pride. They don't want to come off as manipulating, even though they do it everyday. lol

    They seduce, yes, but it is extremely subtle in most cases.

    From Ocean Moonshine:



    Indispensable is the key word here.
    I apologize in advance to the admins and mods for what I'm about to say to the following member that's acting like a self-righteous fool:

    Urarienev, who the hell died and made you all-knowing God of type 2? It's like Judge Judy says, "if it doesn't make sense, it isn't true." I don't believe one word coming out of your mouth; including the BS about what type 2 told you. You're a damn liar!

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