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  1. #91
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora James View Post
    "Saintly dutiful helper" makes me think more of type Nine than type Two.
    Nah, that's way too invested to be directed towards 9s. 2s make the better "helpers" than 9s, it's because they want/need something from it though.

  2. #92
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Why make it a dichotomy? Why can't a lot of E2's be helpers even if some are takers? I get really burnt out on constantly looking for the negative because it pulls everyone down.

    My individual impression of all of these psychological categories is that the negative manifestations tend to come from falsely using a particular function or instinct. Fe becomes fake when it is actually Te masquerading as Fe. Te become irrational when it is actually Fe masquerading as Te. I suspect that when other instincts choose to "act" like an E2, that this is when it becomes fake and manipulative. When it is genuine, then it is good and helpful. I may be on a pollyanna humanistic wild ride in my head, but I've come to this conclusion. I do think there are negative aspects of humanity, but it makes more sense to me that it is founded on falseness.
    That captures my thinking on this pretty well.

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  3. #93
    Member xXMariahXx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    what Naranjo has to about 2s
    It seems to me that Naranjo never met nor observed a healthy version 2.
    Enneagram 4dw 1w2 5w4 sx/so {The Researcher}
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  4. #94
    corona Hawthorne's Avatar
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    Well, most of Naranjo's characterization is deliberately focused on the neurotic manifestation of the enneatypes. Hence the title of his book, Character and Neurosis. Riso and co do a better of job highlighting the positives even if it gets somewhat reductionist at times.

    If the basis of the ennea is an examination of one's ingrained, maladaptive defense mechanisms, I do not find it terribly surprising that more focus is given to the negative aspects of the types.

  5. #95
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXMariahXx View Post
    It seems to me that Naranjo never met nor observed a healthy version 2.
    With regards to all types, he was not focused on writing about 'healthy versions'.

  6. #96
    You are what you love themightyfetus's Avatar
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    Me? A seducer?


    It depends on what you mean by seducer. Do you mean manipulator? Then sure. I think unhealthy 2's are pretty much universally recognized as manipulative, but I don't think that's necessarily synonymous with being a seducer.
    Yet I know, if I stepped aside
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  7. #97
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    True that type 2 is often more a 'seducer' than a helper. The 2 establishes a pride of place through taking on the role of the 'helper'. However they are not necessarily more 'helpful' than any of the other types. The two is often emotionally demonstrative, seductive, with a self-image of being 'important' or 'necessarily'.
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  8. #98
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXMariahXx View Post
    It seems to me that Naranjo never met nor observed a healthy version 2.
    ah, the "this doesn't apply to me because I'm healthy" argument (he talks about all 9 types like this btw. you should see his writing on 8s!). it's more likely that you're mistyped
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  9. #99
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by themightyfetus View Post
    Me? A seducer?


    It depends on what you mean by seducer. Do you mean manipulator? Then sure. I think unhealthy 2's are pretty much universally recognized as manipulative, but I don't think that's necessarily synonymous with being a seducer.
    it's more than just manipulative. it's manipulative by appealing to desire. "if I give you what you want, you will give me what I want". contrary to the impression of most contemporary descriptions, 2s are far less guilt trip-y than they are made out to be. they would rather appeal to more base desires and wait for your to reciprocate on their own, becoming guilt trip-y only when this tactic fails. Sexual 2 is the most overtly Sexual 2 and uses his/her sex appeal in order to rack up "notches on the belt" and gain privilege and favor.
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  10. #100
    Honeyed Water thoughtlost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by themightyfetus View Post
    Me? A seducer?


    It depends on what you mean by seducer. Do you mean manipulator? Then sure. I think unhealthy 2's are pretty much universally recognized as manipulative, but I don't think that's necessarily synonymous with being a seducer.
    haha yeah, it can be a funny way to describe some 2s, but there are some seductive 2s. Those are like the more intense 2s, from my experience. Like, they do some out there things for attention/admiration.
    And, I could be wrong, but I feel like 2w3s are more likely to be "seductive" than 2w1s ...like even if they are not wearing sexy clothing or whatever you attribute to "seductive and sexy", their actions sometimes scream "look at me".

    I have a friend who probably doesn't like to be called seductive ...but she is. She. totally. is. And not because she wears revealing clothes or anything like that. 2s can be super picky (cough*delusional*cough) about how they see themselves and only want to be seen in an ideal way, so ...she has deemed "seductive" to not be ideal and doesn't want to be called that ...even though everyone will tell you that she is!!! She'll even complain saying "why do people think I want to seduce them!?!?!" ...we just get frustrated with her because she doesn't realize that she makes people uncomfortable and doesn't get it when they want her to go away. Like, she isn't a porn star or anything ...but she has this ability to win people over (it doesn't work on everyone, though) ...with some kind of magic. She really doesn't realize she is doing it.

    Edit:: and I do believe that there are healthy 2s out there.
    You are so arbitrary.

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