[Other/Multiple Enneatypes] 4w5 and 5w4: The Thinking/Feeling Types

[small.wonder]

Being both can be a challenge, at least this has been my experience. We are the "high F" thinkers, and the "high T" feelers of MBTI and can confuse the crap out of others and ourselves. We analyze our emotions to death, and our intense thoughts cause us to become emotionally volatile.

4w5 and 5w4 friends, please share your experience of this as I am quite done drowning in my own of late.

 

[Qlip]

I'm unfamiliar with the 5, I haven't explored my wing, really. But I don't think it's wrong in saying that as a 4, at least, this can be very true for me. I think I was more afraid of my emotions than I needed to be, this intensified and set that feeling that my own impulses are dangerous.

They became a lot more manageable when I allowed myself to express them, sometimes in making bad decisions, sometimes in just writing things or being very honest to a friend.

Another thing that helps is to have perspective and a sense of humor about yourself. Humanity is a very silly thing, there's a farcical aspect to the fact that we feel like we are at the center of the universe in our personal drama when you consider that everybody else is as well. I love absurdity, it's not taken seriously enough. I am a Minister in the Church of the Subgenius.

 

[small.wonder]

Huh, [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION] interesting. If you are unfamiliar with 5, then how do you know it is your wing? The fact that you haven't explored it causes me to think that you indeed may not have a 5 wing-- 5's and those with 5 components are puzzle solvers, ever curious and obsessively pulling topics and things apart to understand and analyze them. For someone with 4 and 5 components that would mean insatiable self analysis. I would expect someone that felt that to definitely know about their wing to a deep and complete extent.

I also find it curious that you were afraid of your emotions, I see 4's in quite the opposite way really. I indulge in and freely let my emotions reign when at average health. Only in health am I capable of self control and maintaining boundaries. All in all, I don't think I have ever feared my emotions, though I have definitely felt shame about them.

Would you expand? As of now, I think perhaps you are a bit mistyped.

 

[the resident]

[MENTION=17697]small.wonder[/MENTION]

Can you explain what you mean by "high F" thinking and "high T" feeling? Surely you don't mean thinkers who have a lot of feelings or feelers who have a lot of thoughts.

 

[small.wonder]

[MENTION=20825]the resident[/MENTION] Sure! I meant that 4+5 people tend to test pretty evenly on the Thinking/Feeling element of MBTI because we are a heart/head combo. For instance, I test almost evenly but Feeling wins out by like 5 points usually, so I'm a "high T" Feeling type (or that's how I think of it anyway). I suppose another way to denote that is to write my type with a lowercase "f" because it's not as strong of a preference. I hope that helps!

 

[Qlip]

[MENTION=17697]small.wonder[/MENTION]

I suppose I've just assumed that I'm a 4w5 because I tend to have analytical language patterns and I am a computer programmer. I wonder if my fear of my feelings has something to do with maybe having 9 in my tritype.

I indulge my feelings, but only within myself, I have a tendency to keep them under wraps when it comes to other people. When in bad health, I tend to think of myself as a monster, or having a disease, so I quarantine myself.

 

[the resident]

When in bad health, I tend to think of myself as a monster, or having a disease, so I quarantine myself.

Why not give in?

 

[Qlip]

Why not give in?

The world is bad enough without me dumping my problems into it. But I'm starting to think this is exactly what the world is for.

 

[Ghost]

4w5 and 5w4 friends, please share your experience of this as I am quite done drowning in my own of late.

On tests that give percentages, my results usually fall squarely in Feeling territory, generally 60% or higher. I don’t experience confusion between Thinking or Feeling when it comes to MBTI, nor do I feel tension between my analytical and emotional aspects. Fi fits me perfectly. It’s not a “high T” version. It’s still Fi.

My uncertainty is about 5w4 and whether it fits. It doesn't help that stereotypes probably lead me astray. Whether I’m 4w5 or 5w4 doesn’t change how strongly I relate to Feeling, although it might adjust my view on my priorities.

Is being emotionally volatile something 4w5s or 5w4s are known for?

 

[Seymour]

Is being emotionally volatile something 4w5s or 5w4s are known for?

I think 4s (being part of the reactive triad) are known for being more emotionally volatile, as well as for tending to intensify and dwell in their emotions. 5s (being part of the competency triad) tend to avoid overly intense emotional states, and tend to withdraw and intellectualize. 5s are sometimes known for being calm in a crisis, as well.

Still, I think it certainly can vary. Some 4s are more internal about their emotional intensity, and those 5s that are not very emotionally tuned in can habitually come across as harshly critical. Certainly some of those who identify as 5s here seem both fairly verbally aggressive and reactive.

 

[Totenkindly]

My life could be divided into stages.

Stage 1 (Age 1-20): Surviving an alcoholic family
Stage 2 (Age 21-39): Marriage / Raising family
Stage 3 (Age 40): Single life / Becoming more authentic socially

Stage 1 demanded a particular mindset to survive. I had to rely on not tapping into my Four wing at all, it was all pretty much Five -- observe, protect self, detach the emotions, deny any human needs, maintain logical legitimacy, survive. Meanwhile, I had an artistic side that I viewed more as "projects" where I could give full reign to emotional exploration and creation, and I oddly would feel most alive during those times but could not let it interfere with the reality of my daily survival.

Stage 2 was an integration period, because the strategies I relied on growing up no longer worked in a marriage. I had to embrace emotions, for one, and actually process them rather than simply ignoring or stuffing them. (The early part of this period had its share of emotional explosions.) I also wasn't happy and had to acknowledge that there were needs within me not being met and find a way to meet them, legitimately. Also, art and identity and meaning became less separate from me and began filtering over into my daily world as I sought for a way to be both honest about the world while being true to myself. In the tail end of Stage 3, I lost all motivation for art because all that energy was going into recreating myself while under the protective guidance of my objective rationality -- i.e., I could be free to explore it because I still kept a good sense of the world around me and its strictures. So logic was guiding me, but within it I was exploring right up to the boundaries.

Stage 3 has been a period of integration. I've begun to do separate "art" again but in a way my life is my statement and the experiences I've had define me and guide me. The logic and the emotion are in balance, coexisting and each having their moments of expression. I'm kinda like the ball balanced on a book edge, and if I fall either way, it's toward the "rational detached observer", but otherwise it's pretty close and I get scared sometimes at the strength of emotions that I find triggered, based on the values I've collected over this life journey. Sometimes I find myself reacting in ways that unsettle me or that I rationally know could be seen as "irrational" by others, but they have their own kind of truth to them and I try to go with it. IOW, controlling and smothering my identity and ideas and reactions to things is no longer something I care much to do.

Anyway, out of the two, I always trusted my observation and detached philosophy the most, but next to that the "journey of self" (or game of you) has been the next largest thing for me. I'm pretty typical 5w4 in terms of where my mind and emotions can go -- some crazy dark landscapes, without being unsettled by them... or maybe it is better to say that the intensity and unsettled feeling is actually something that I personally respond to as a positive ... it stimulates me in some way. (I tend to be counter-phobic when dealing with fears, and I'm very willing to do things that scare me in order to understand them and incorporate knowledge of them into myself.)

Is being emotionally volatile something 4w5s or 5w4s are known for?

The stereotype would be the Histrionics of Four, I suppose; but what comes out in my life is that, while on the surface I come across as very calm and easy-going (which is something those who meet me have actually commented on, and I've had more than a few people say they come to me to find stability), inside I have such an intensity of feeling sometimes that it's scary and painful.

It's like all the drama that the stereotypical Four might express outwardly is very manifest in my internal world of feeling. I tend to be very epic and melodramatic internally, while laughing at myself at the same time internally because I'm totally aware of it. Basically, I prefer to let the rationality rule my exterior state and actual behavior but meanwhile give the emotional aspect as much free rein as possible to increase my creativity and intensity of feeling since I feel there is an energy and aspect of truth to that experience.

 

[Ghost]

I relate to emotional intensity but not volatility which sounds like drastic or violent shifts in mood. For me, strong emotions are more of a slow build. When something distressing happens, it's like a wave I have to withstand. I need solitude to ignore those emotions until they feel less urgent, then I can deal with them.

This "calm in a crisis" thing doesn't fit me. I'll look into it.

 

[the resident]

The world is bad enough without me dumping my problems into it. But I'm starting to think this is exactly what the world is for.

*Hulks out*

 

[OrangeAppled]

[MENTION=20825]the resident[/MENTION] Sure! I meant that 4+5 people tend to test pretty evenly on the Thinking/Feeling element of MBTI because we are a heart/head combo. For instance, I test almost evenly but Feeling wins out by like 5 points usually, so I'm a "high T" Feeling type (or that's how I think of it anyway). I suppose another way to denote that is to write my type with a lowercase "f" because it's not as strong of a preference. I hope that helps!

Hm...I never really thought of my enneagram being a reason for this... I too tend to test nearly 50/50 on T/F & when I first tried MBTI, tested very strongly as INTP. I thought it was because the test makes feeling sound very Fe and/or like emotion. It took a deeper grasp of Jungian theory to see myself as an Introverted Feeling type - of all things, I actually have a dominant feeling preference .

Internally, I am certainly "volatile" as someone here referred to it as. And those VERY close to me might call me temperamental. I DO think this is more apparent online due to anonymity also (& the written word is more amenable to my inner self). But in person, acquaintances & strangers might think me rather calm. And I get accused of being too analytical & detached. I think I aim this more at external things which are "trying" to affect me than my own emotions (well, I do analyze my emotions...but I don't generally detach). Most criticisms I get from those close to me sound more like 5 "faults", oddly enough. 4ish faults attributed to me is the temperamental streak & snobbishness. I'm aware of the other common 4 faults in myself, but outwardly in person, I don't seem to register to others as "romantic" as the 4 is generally made out to be.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Is being emotionally volatile something 4w5s or 5w4s are known for?

I'm not big on 'tritype'- if only because there isn't a whole lot out there on it- but I remember reading recently in the 548 description that emotional volatility was a characteristic (which I suppose would apply to 458 as well, or 485, etc). 4 can be incredibly moody and have *a lot* of emotional gravity, but I'd personally be inclined to tag 'volatile' more to 5. Disintegrating to 8, maybe. Also it's probably worst with least so variant.

There's another member here who has posted this clip a couple times- I think it's a good example of 'emotionally volatile 5'.

[And here's a comment about it I've made before:] I get that way myself (like the video) and it invariably feels bad afterwards. It seems to me that a 'healthy' move towards 8 would mean sharing those observations in a constructive way which is helpful to others. When it's just bitterly pointing stuff out, it's like those observations have accumulated and reached a boiling point (for me, internally)- even though it's acting outwards, which might otherwise seem like a healthy move for 5s- it's still lacking appropriate/respectful connection to others. (Largely it's a matter of feeling disrespected by others, as if the disrespectful connection is because the others don't seem capable of a balanced exchange- and I wouldn't call anything that feels like that, a major 5 pitfal, to be a part of 'integration'.)

 

[small.wonder]

Wow, so many great responses! [MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] I can relate largely to what both of you have said.

I've begun to do separate "art" again but in a way my life is my statement and the experiences I've had define me and guide me. The logic and the emotion are in balance, coexisting and each having their moments of expression. I'm kinda like the ball balanced on a book edge, and if I fall either way, it's toward the "rational detached observer", but otherwise it's pretty close and I get scared sometimes at the strength of emotions that I find triggered, based on the values I've collected over this life journey. Sometimes I find myself reacting in ways that unsettle me or that I rationally know could be seen as "irrational" by others, but they have their own kind of truth to them and I try to go with it. IOW, controlling and smothering my identity and ideas and reactions to things is no longer something I care much to do.

The beginning of this resonates with me so much, but (obviously) I fall more to the feeling/4 side if in doubt. I think my rational side startles me sometimes in the inverse of what you've described, it just pours out of me and I don't know where it came from. Discussing a topic with friends, recalling information in detail, I don't realize I'm doing it. I've noticed that rational side in the way I get over things really quickly compared with others (like my e2 Mom who needs to process and pout for hours or days). My emotionality is definitely volatile and comes in strong currents, then goes as soon as it came. Probably because my 5 component has never been "in control" so to speak, I've never experienced the censoring aspect of it you mentioned above (controlling and smothering identity, ideas, reactions).

Anyway, out of the two, I always trusted my observation and detached philosophy the most, but next to that the "journey of self" (or game of you) has been the next largest thing for me. I'm pretty typical 5w4 in terms of where my mind and emotions can go -- some crazy dark landscapes, without being unsettled by them... or maybe it is better to say that the intensity and unsettled feeling is actually something that I personally respond to as a positive ... it stimulates me in some way. (I tend to be counter-phobic when dealing with fears, and I'm very willing to do things that scare me in order to understand them and incorporate knowledge of them into myself.

Yes to the bolded.

The stereotype would be the Histrionics of Four, I suppose; but what comes out in my life is that, while on the surface I come across as very calm and easy-going (which is something those who meet me have actually commented on, and I've had more than a few people say they come to me to find stability), inside I have such an intensity of feeling sometimes that it's scary and painful.

I've been told I'm very grounded as well, I've come to relate it to my sense of practical logic. If I can do something about a problem, I will. If it's a daunting situation, stress helps no one so I don't understand anxiety. Conflict is good because it brings honesty, so why shy away from it? 1 + 2 = 3. That calm, however is almost the opposite of what e9 calm looks like. It's active calm I suppose, it's not mellow, or "easy-going" (as you put it). I would describe it more as capable, or clear headed though I also know I can be a bit clipped or overly intense about it. Fear doesn't really have a part in my life, but shame does.

It's like all the drama that the stereotypical Four might express outwardly is very manifest in my internal world of feeling. I tend to be very epic and melodramatic internally, while laughing at myself at the same time internally because I'm totally aware of it. Basically, I prefer to let the rationality rule my exterior state and actual behavior but meanwhile give the emotional aspect as much free rein as possible to increase my creativity and intensity of feeling since I feel there is an energy and aspect of truth to that experience.

I always have trouble with the "4 drama" card because of stereotypes. I am definitely emotionally tumultuous on the inside, but not always on the out (I am an introvert after all). Maybe that's my health speaking because I used to me more "say anything" and saw everything as "about me". That said, I don't hesitate to express anger or hurt if it's there or raise a red flag. My response to "hey, how are you" is usually not, "I'm good, you?". It's actually the softer emotions that are harder for me to express outwardly, but I think that has to do more with some trauma in my story. I almost use my 5 wing as a defense mechanism at times.

I find your breakdown of life stages really interesting. I think I've already had three myself and I'm only 25 (eeep) but circumstances definitely do change the way our type manifests.

Hm...I never really thought of my enneagram being a reason for this... I too tend to test nearly 50/50 on T/F & when I first tried MBTI, tested very strongly as INTP. I thought it was because the test makes feeling sound very Fe and/or like emotion. It took a deeper grasp of Jungian theory to see myself as an Introverted Feeling type - of all things, I actually have a dominant feeling preference .

Internally, I am certainly "volatile" as someone here referred to it as. And those VERY close to me might call me temperamental. I DO think this is more apparent online due to anonymity also (& the written word is more amenable to my inner self). But in person, acquaintances & strangers might think me rather calm. And I get accused of being too analytical & detached. I think I aim this more at external things which are "trying" to affect me than my own emotions (well, I do analyze my emotions...but I don't generally detach). Most criticisms I get from those close to me sound more like 5 "faults", oddly enough. 4ish faults attributed to me is the temperamental streak & snobbishness. I'm aware of the other common 4 faults in myself, but outwardly in person, I don't seem to register to others as "romantic" as the 4 is generally made out to be.

My MBTI "journey" was so similar, the end of this thread demonstrates it well if you're interested. I've even met a couple well verse MBTI people who both guessed INxJ, crazy. Because of the T/F balance I can also relate to writing off the overly "feely" descriptions! It took me awhile to see how Fe actually manifests in my life, which is basically just my desire to make sure respect is in tact. I do think it makes a heck of a lot of sense correlated to my Enneagram type, perfect sense really.

I relate to all of the bolded above heavily, I even have a close friend who beleives I am a 5 which I considered, studied deeply and found true but not to the extent of 4. I think a large part of this has to do with my story, but I use my wing as a defense mechanism somewhat. Is that a thing? Long story short, I have Narcolepsy with Cataplexy so for 7 years of my life (before finding an effective medication) any emotion caused me to loose muscle tone and physically collapse. To survive I withdrew socially and emotionally. I think that's where my analytical, stoic side became my safety, and my emotional side became my shame.
[MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION] Was that just a coincidental reference to 458 or were you referring to me? Or are you 584? Your thoughts on integration and disintegration for 5 are interesting, I think the intent is that a healthy 5 is able to control their environment and have the courage to venture out and speak their mind. Even in your video clip, I think his "volatile" reaction (which was mild) was healthy. He was standing up for himself when others were blatantly disrespecting him. I've not seen the film (though I want to now ) so I hope I'm not missing anything vital.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I always have trouble with the "4 drama" card because of stereotypes. I am definitely emotionally tumultuous on the inside, but not always on the out (I am an introvert after all). Maybe that's my health speaking because I used to me more "say anything" and saw everything as "about me". That said, I don't hesitate to express anger or hurt if it's there or raise a red flag. My response to "hey, how are you" is usually not, "I'm good, you?". It's actually the softer emotions that are harder for me to express outwardly, but I think that has to do more with some trauma in my story. I almost use my 5 wing as a defense mechanism at times.

I relate to this also. I am temperamental at time, but I don't have much interpersonal drama in my life (especially when I look at others' lives). There's one woman in my life who was making drama for me, and it follows her like a cloud of flies, but since I've avoided her it's disappeared for me. But internally I think I am melodramatic, just even in my fantasies, because it makes life feel more *significant*, which is the thing I crave.

And I too have a harder time expressing softer emotion, but I've gotten better at it once I decided to make an effort. There's not only a vulnerability about it, but this level of energy I cannot seem to muster & so it never feels authentic enough.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Z Buck McFate was that just a coincidental reference to 458 or were you referring to me? Or are you 584? Your thoughts on integration and disintegration for 5 are interesting, I think the intent is that a healthy 5 is able to control their environment and have the courage to venture out and speak their mind. Even in your video clip, I think his "volatile" reaction (which was mild) was healthy. He was standing up for himself when others were blatantly disrespecting him. I've not seen the film (though I want to now ) so I hope I'm not missing anything vital.

It was coincidental, I guess (I wasn't paying attention to anyone's tritype). I'm somewhere in between 548 and 549, myself. (I think 549 is more the 'calm in a crisis' type.)

And I haven't seen the movie either, I just remember someone posting that clip. I don't know, I guess it's relative to taste, but I personally never feel better after acting like that. Here's the thread the clip came from (and more comments about the clip) if you're interested: What does a counter phobic 5 look like?

 

[grey_beard]

(snip)
It's like all the drama that the stereotypical Four might express outwardly is very manifest in my internal world of feeling. I tend to be very epic and melodramatic internally, while laughing at myself at the same time internally because I'm totally aware of it. Basically, I prefer to let the rationality rule my exterior state and actual behavior but meanwhile give the emotional aspect as much free rein as possible to increase my creativity and intensity of feeling since I feel there is an energy and aspect of truth to that experience.

Yah, I grok you totally. (signed, INTJ 5w4)
Except, sometimes, the emotions are either not resolved (they don't happen to have been resoved) or they are not resolve-able (don't know quite how to assimilate them fully)...
in which case, I don't laugh at myself, I watch in absorbed, macabre fascination.

Thanks for posting this, it hit chords which I feel but cannot as yet identify.

 

[grey_beard]

I relate to this also. I am temperamental at time, but I don't have much interpersonal drama in my life (especially when I look at others' lives). There's one woman in my life who was making drama for me, and it follows her like a cloud of flies, but since I've avoided her it's disappeared for me. But internally I think I am melodramatic, just even in my fantasies, because it makes life feel more *significant*, which is the thing I crave.

And I too have a harder time expressing softer emotion, but I've gotten better at it once I decided to make an effort. There's not only a vulnerability about it, but this level of energy I cannot seem to muster & so it never feels authentic enough.

"...There's one woman in my life who was making drama for me, and it follows her like a cloud of flies"

...and from experience, flies are attracted to what two things, specifically? One is honey and the other is...
There's not only a vulnerability about it, but this level of energy I cannot seem to muster & so it never feels authentic enough.
(redacted to avoid even an inadvertent nuclear war.) Hint, hint.
Full Disclosure: admittedly, just yanking your chain. I gave up alcohol for lent and it's Mardi Gras (Fat Tuesday). You may detect a certain flippancy and even-more-brusqueness-than-usual associated with my posts this evening.