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  1. #51
    garbage
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    But if you need a scapegoat...
    Applied typolology in a nutshell.

  2. #52
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    I had a girlfriend I think was a 6. Seemed like the more I did for her, the less happy she was with me and the more she'd try to provoke me, and when I ended up telling her what was on my mind, whatever it was, confirmed her greatest fear and she'd burst into tears. Usually I can be really soft and encouraging with the truth, but damn when you try to extract it from me it's not always nice.

    But then I think, hey did I say that because I actually felt it or because I was being hassled non-stop and I just wanted to get her off my back?

    So how do we get someone to do that without forcing extraction?
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by garbage View Post
    Applied typolology in a nutshell.
    lol

  4. #54
    Blind Guardian Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    So how do we get someone to do that without forcing extraction?
    Why do you want to know the truth so much, and why would you expect someone to tell you?

    Reasons I have lied or otherwise obscured the truth from someone:
    1. i know they're going to overreact
    2. they might think less of me
    3. it has nothing to do with them
    4. I'm not ready to talk about it yet
    5. I'm in a hurry and will say whatever is expedient
    6. i would rather ask for forgiveness than for permission
    7. i don't trust them enough, they might use it against me
    {The Diplomat}
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  5. #55
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Why do you want to know the truth so much, and why would you expect someone to tell you?

    Reasons I have lied or otherwise obscured the truth from someone:
    1. i know they're going to overreact
    2. they might think less of me
    3. it has nothing to do with them
    4. I'm not ready to talk about it yet
    5. I'm in a hurry and will say whatever is expedient
    6. i would rather ask for forgiveness than for permission
    7. i don't trust them enough, they might use it against me
    I want to know the truth because I don't think I need to be lied to.

    Nothing is that big of a deal. And my overreaction will subside even if it is a big deal.

    Honesty makes things easier. And I don't do well faking things. So its almost impossible for me.

    Why wouldn't I expect the truth? I really only expect the truth from people that want my trust.

    But what I am asking is, how do you get some one to open up to you other than provoking. Which I agree doesn't work.

    But then want does? Just sit there. Wait patiently for years for them to open up? How do I get to know them?
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
    10w12

  6. #56
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post
    Thanks for the responses guys.

    Perhaps my direct action will eventually yield their understanding. I'm setting up weekly meetings and trying to get some privacy.

    conversation I had with my ENFJ 6 head manager:

    me: I feel like everything is great when I have something for you guys to do. There's a mission in place, I'm enthusiastic, and everyone else is too. But in the last 2 months there has been nothing for us to do and I wanted to see how you guys act hands off. I'm not sure I can provide the consistent action that you guys seem to enjoy.
    enfj: oh you're consistent. you're just consistently miserable and unhappy.
    me: no I'm not I'm fine.
    enfj: we have plenty of drive and enthusiasm, you're just not joining it.
    me: I deactivated my car to save money on insurance and gas and I live on your living room floor. I can't be physically with all you guys every day.
    enfj: its fine. We understand. Do what you do. (I interpret this as a passive aggressive response when matched with the bitter look on his face and tone of voice)
    me: I'd like to set up weekly meetings on skype.
    enfj: *sharp tone* we already have weekly meetings at the gym. You're not seeing them.

    this is what I have to deal with. I ask for feedback but he always tells me I'm doing fine and nothing needs to change. Yet I have to deal with his attitude all the time. But when I'm enthusiastic and have something for him to do, suddenly everything is cool. His bitterness seems to be present anytime I act cold around him. Considering I'm a cold person and dont' always feel like smiling, its difficult when I feel like I have to be bright and smiley all the time around him. I'm thinking I just need to not live with him anymore so that everytime I'm interacting with him, its on the grounds of enthusiasm with a plan at hand.
    Remember that 6 reacts... it can be a 6 tendency to "push back". It can be annoying for others to deal with (and it can be frustrating internally for the 6, too), but it's not intentionally negative. It's just like pushing on the famous Bobo doll... it swings back in your direction in an attempt to restabilize itself because it's been knocked out of balance. So if you come up to a 6 who is feeling stable... and "push" them in some way, they're likely to instinctively push back. To the internal experience of a 6, when you "push" us, it feels like you're saying or doing something incorrect that needs to be corrected.

    However, if you're patient, up-front, and reassuring, a 6 can usually quickly restabilize and get on board with you. The bright side of this is we tend to be accommodating and we tend to take on responsibility, so if you can approach a 6 gently and give them time, information, and expressed support, they'll probably be willing to bend over backwards for you.

    I am additionally fairly certain that living with someone who is underneath you in a work structure is difficult for both parties. 6s are already skeptical of authority in general (we see very clearly how their power over us puts them in a position of being easily able to harm us, and thus are wary), and him seeing you in a nonprofessional context probably blurs a lot of strange personal/professional lines. Especially considering the reversed power structure of you, the person in charge, being on his floor. I can see that stirring up a whole lot of resentment on the part of a 6.

    To theoretically break down the conversation you guys had in terms of push/react - no telling if this is totally accurate but it's at least a good facsimile of 6 defensive thinking:

    (I'm starting each bullet with "you" and your action because in 6 perception, things happen to them, imposing on them.)

    - You approach with enthusiasm; 6 counters with telling you you're grumpy. To the internal experience of the 6, he might hear you talking about your positivity and enthusiasm but he, being analytical and skeptical, immediately thinks back on all the times you haven't been like that, and this sets off alarms in his head. He might wonder if you're mistakenly seeing yourself like that to your personal benefit while everyone else is suffering, or if you're trying to just present one face of yourself because you're trying to convince him of something. The "push back" revolves around how and why you might be deceiving and using him.

    - You demonstrate that you're doing all you reasonably can and depriving yourself of fairly basic needs (no proper bed, no car) for your employees' sake. He may mentally run that up against perceiving you being emotionally inaccessible or physically unavailable when he feels like he or the other employees needed you, and again find an inconsistency. But he's already tried to argue that point, and you shot it down, which may be what made him respond passive-aggressively this time.

    - You tell him you want to add something to the workload; he likely runs this through the questions of "why do we need this?", "is this going to be helpful?", and, considering the content of the conversation, whether this will make you more present and enthusiastic. Since clearly he doesn't think so, he disagrees. The additional negativity I think probably comes from the viewpoint of whether you're trying to help employees or mainly taking care of yourself. MDP made a really excellent point about it being hard to see things through a manager's shoes, and most employees won't always be able to see it. And you just have to give them that latitude and ignore it sometimes. With a 6, the more you show them that you're actively concerned with their personal welfare and are open and transparent as far as is appropriate, that will ease a lot of fear of "The Man" fucking them over.

  7. #57
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post
    Thanks for the responses guys.

    Perhaps my direct action will eventually yield their understanding. I'm setting up weekly meetings and trying to get some privacy.

    conversation I had with my ENFJ 6 head manager:

    me: I feel like everything is great when I have something for you guys to do. There's a mission in place, I'm enthusiastic, and everyone else is too. But in the last 2 months there has been nothing for us to do and I wanted to see how you guys act hands off. I'm not sure I can provide the consistent action that you guys seem to enjoy.
    enfj: oh you're consistent. you're just consistently miserable and unhappy.
    me: no I'm not I'm fine.
    enfj: we have plenty of drive and enthusiasm, you're just not joining it.
    me: I deactivated my car to save money on insurance and gas and I live on your living room floor. I can't be physically with all you guys every day.
    enfj: its fine. We understand. Do what you do. (I interpret this as a passive aggressive response when matched with the bitter look on his face and tone of voice)
    me: I'd like to set up weekly meetings on skype.
    enfj: *sharp tone* we already have weekly meetings at the gym. You're not seeing them.

    this is what I have to deal with. I ask for feedback but he always tells me I'm doing fine and nothing needs to change. Yet I have to deal with his attitude all the time. But when I'm enthusiastic and have something for him to do, suddenly everything is cool. His bitterness seems to be present anytime I act cold around him. Considering I'm a cold person and dont' always feel like smiling, its difficult when I feel like I have to be bright and smiley all the time around him. I'm thinking I just need to not live with him anymore so that everytime I'm interacting with him, its on the grounds of enthusiasm with a plan at hand.

    Ok. So this sounds like the ENFJ is telling you that you have a poor attitude and aren't a team player and may not know what actually is going on.

    Your response don't refute any of that. I would be like ( in so many words) "gtfo of my office with this" because I know what I'm doing and know they'd have no grounds to even voice that.

    You guys aren't even having the same conversation. It's strange. Neither of you are fulfilling your roles because you each don't seem to know what the other requires.

    This is what it comes down to - ask him what he/they need from you to do A,B,C for you. Provide it. Then take what you need. It's that simple.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  8. #58
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    I think this example/scenario (which is a good one) is about two things - leadership and personality differences. Leadership is the more important of the two.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

    Tri-type 639

  9. #59
    Senior Member captain curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post
    they need to come to me and say "this is what happened, and this is what I did about it" instead of coming to me looking for a solution to every problem they encounter.
    This doesn't sound like an enneagram six problem. It sounds like either a sucking at communication and self-advocacy problem or a passive-aggressive problem.
    Jarlaxle: fact checking this thread makes me want to go all INFP on my wrists

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  10. #60
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I think this example/scenario (which is a good one) is about two things - leadership and personality differences. Leadership is the more important of the two.
    Yeah. MDP2525's and wheelchairdoug's comments are right on, too, I think.

    I'd think you'd benefit a lot if the format for appropriate interaction and guarantee of response was much clearer. As your inferior he would benefit from knowing how and when he can approach you with issues and how and when he can expect you to respond, regardless of whether you decide it's not a problem or whether you choose to address it.

    The more I think about it, I keep coming back to how I would really struggle with the living arrangements. Dunno if it's the ENFJ's hangup, but it would be mine. That is just way too many overlapping roles for me - how do you take orders at work from someone who you're doing a favor for? It'd be confusing to me.

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