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  1. #21
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    '

    The way I see it is...if you are administering a personality inventory during the hiring process...'unethical' discrimination will occur, period. It is unavoidable no matter how many pretty words you make use of to counteract that reality. I would love to see some actual data on this... how many FPs are hired when screened alongside TJs. <-Here is where we could ascertain how well those 'ethical guidelines' are working.

    Frankly, I would rather be rejected merely because the owner of the company despises ENFPs...than because they believe I will be perpetually late and am unorganized.
    I agree.

    I think it's a terrible idea to administer Meyers Briggs as part of the hiring process. Don't know why anyone would want to do that. You would think the HR people should know better. I have to assume they are simply uninformed.

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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    It's strongly worded so I can see how you might get that impression but I'm actually not offended in the slightest. I hold a strong opinion on this issue. Also, since you are direct in the way you express yourself, my natural inclination is to be direct in return (right or wrong).

    I personally believe it is a very bad idea to make negative judgments about people based on their type. I've done it myself to be sure especially earlier on when I was learning about it. I still have an occasional weak moment, but I try to be pretty conscious of this because I feel it is a dangerous and counterproductive misapplication of type.
    oh cool. fair nuff.

  3. #23
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I agree.

    I think it's a terrible idea to administer Meyers Briggs as part of the hiring process. Don't know why anyone would want to do that. You would think the HR people should know better. I have to assume they are simply uninformed.
    Well, they are used for all the reasons you feel they should not be used... you've gotta trim the xxxP and e6 fat. haha...oh how I wish I could attach an 'I'm kidding' here.

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    While we're on the topic, I want someone to tell me I'm doing what I'm supposed to be good for.

    6's want stability last I checked. ESTJ's, ENTJ's, ENFJs', etc... they are good with providing enthusiasm on a routine basis. Whereas my enthusiasm is spontaneous and unpredictable. It frustrates all the 6's around me because I'm hot and cold. But when I get enthusiastic and I want a project done, I move MOUNTAINS.

    I hate having 6's around me because they always judge me negatively based on my lack of consistency. And its painful for me to give this consistency. It is a difficult chore for me to be dependable. I like the idea that I'm a weapon that people pull out when they need it, and then they put me in the closet when they're done. Fuckin Il duce.

    So am I doing something wrong? Or do I just need to make my purpose known? I think I do provide a sense of stability to others in the fact that I'm not concerned with the things they are.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    You should never make hiring decisions based on a person's type. Ever.

    It is unethical.
    The job I work generally only hires ENFJs... They give you the MBTI before your phone interview. Probably not ethical, but since it's a phone job (I call my school's alumni and ask for $$$) it definitely makes sense to look for those qualities, whether you label them with a type or not.

    And on the 6's this pretty much sums it up...

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/erinlarosa/p...797099_2074898

    I lived with an ISFJ 6 last year, and I've also mistyped as one before. Literally everything just kind of feels like the end of the world to them. I'm not sure if this is is typical of all 6s, but my roommate was insanely defensive. I don't think I've actually ever intended to criticize her before, but she has certainly interpreted it that way. She is also probably the most literal person I've ever met. But, I also love her to death. She's the only other SJ in our apartment full of NFs.
    Friends, waffles, work

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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post

    6's want stability last I checked. ESTJ's, ENTJ's, ENFJs', etc... they are good with providing enthusiasm on a routine basis. Whereas my enthusiasm is spontaneous and unpredictable. It frustrates all the 6's around me because I'm hot and cold. But when I get enthusiastic and I want a project done, I move MOUNTAINS.

    I hate having 6's around me because they always judge me negatively based on my lack of consistency. And its painful for me to give this consistency. It is a difficult chore for me to be dependable. I like the idea that I'm a weapon that people pull out when they need it, and then they put me in the closet when they're done. Fuckin Il duce.

    So am I doing something wrong? Or do I just need to make my purpose known? I think I do provide a sense of stability to others in the fact that I'm not concerned with the things they are.
    As someone with a strong 6 wing and 7 mother I will tell you whats wrong in that dynamic. Yes we fucking hate the 7 propensity to jump around, flip and switch between one project and another. That kind of shit irritates me because it makes the 7 seem flakey and inconsistent in my eyes. Not only that there are constantly shifting goal posts in terms of expectations, one minute I'm doing the right thing, the next I'm being criticised for failing to 'read her mind' and know that shes into something different now. Not only that but my 6 side likes to a see a project through from beginning to end. If you (meaning anyone) dicks with my project and requires me to now instantly and randomly focus elsewhere it makes me want to stab them in the eye.

    Its less about what you are 'doing' and more about the lack of clear and consistent expectations against which one can measure their own performance and how they are tracking. While I can cope with the flakiness in my mother (I largely ignore her) in a boss I couldnt because I need to be performing to expectations and I need to know what those expectations are. I also need expectations to be reasonably consistent throughout the life of a project so I have a chance of meeting them.

    It seems to me your 6's are constantly seeking validation or rather input from you because there aren't clear and consistent expectations about what you want from them and that feels grossly unfair in their eyes. 6's need a raft to board and then captain, they can't get by clinging to bits of driftwood in an ever changing sea. Be spontanesous and meditative or whatever, just don't leave the rudder unattended or they will find a way to wrest control from you in their own instinct for self preservation.

    6's wont appreciate your heroics of moving mountains when you are interested because its impossible to tell what is likely to interest you. Your 6's are keenly interested in keeping their jobs, they fear not performing well and you are the focus of that fear because they dont know you.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    As someone with a strong 6 wing and 7 mother I will tell you whats wrong in that dynamic. Yes we fucking hate the 7 propensity to jump around, flip and switch between one project and another. That kind of shit irritates me because it makes the 7 seem flakey and inconsistent in my eyes. Not only that there are constantly shifting goal posts in terms of expectations, one minute I'm doing the right thing, the next I'm being criticised for failing to 'read her mind' and know that shes into something different now. Not only that but my 6 side likes to a see a project through from beginning to end. If you (meaning anyone) dicks with my project and requires me to now instantly and randomly focus elsewhere it makes me want to stab them in the eye.

    Its less about what you are 'doing' and more about the lack of clear and consistent expectations against which one can measure their own performance and how they are tracking. While I can cope with the flakiness in my mother (I largely ignore her) in a boss I couldnt because I need to be performing to expectations and I need to know what those expectations are. I also need expectations to be reasonably consistent throughout the life of a project so I have a chance of meeting them.

    It seems to me your 6's are constantly seeking validation or rather input from you because there aren't clear and consistent expectations about what you want from them and that feels grossly unfair in their eyes. 6's need a raft to board and then captain, they can't get by clinging to bits of driftwood in an ever changing sea. Be spontanesous and meditative or whatever, just don't leave the rudder unattended or they will find a way to wrest control from you in their own instinct for self preservation.

    6's wont appreciate your heroics of moving mountains when you are interested because its impossible to tell what is likely to interest you. Your 6's are keenly interested in keeping their jobs, they fear not performing well and you are the focus of that fear because they dont know you.
    That is what scares me. Whenever I am taking a breath, they seem to be freaking out wondering where I disappeared to and then taking matters into their own hands. I can sense it. Like I'm standing in fog and its closing in around me at all times filling the spaces I used to occupy.

    But the thing is, I am spontaneous. Its not going away. My dad told me I should give a 1 month, 3 month, 6 month plan, and update them on that weekly. Do you think that would help? I need a concrete solution.

  8. #28
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post
    While we're on the topic, I want someone to tell me I'm doing what I'm supposed to be good for.

    6's want stability last I checked. ESTJ's, ENTJ's, ENFJs', etc... they are good with providing enthusiasm on a routine basis. Whereas my enthusiasm is spontaneous and unpredictable. It frustrates all the 6's around me because I'm hot and cold. But when I get enthusiastic and I want a project done, I move MOUNTAINS.

    I hate having 6's around me because they always judge me negatively based on my lack of consistency. And its painful for me to give this consistency. It is a difficult chore for me to be dependable. I like the idea that I'm a weapon that people pull out when they need it, and then they put me in the closet when they're done. Fuckin Il duce.

    So am I doing something wrong? Or do I just need to make my purpose known? I think I do provide a sense of stability to others in the fact that I'm not concerned with the things they are.
    The most important thing I learned when I first got into managing people was the importance of trust. It cuts across all types but it is especially important for 6s to have trusting relationships with others. I don't know about other 6s but I don't judge people negatively because they lack consistency. These things being said, I may not be typical in that regard and I do believe for many people consistency is quite important. For 6s, what may be most important is personal loyalty to the individual vs. some kind of predictable behavior. Is there something you might be doing that causes them to worry about their personal security?

    I'm not sure what will work for you but here is what worked for me. After learning that trust was important, the single most important thing I learned was to extend that trust towards others. When you trust others, they trust you. The second thing I did was to try and understand and appreciate the differences between people. I would in a sense become a student of the person - to seek to understand them, their motivations, what they are like, what they enjoy doing and be able to understand how and why they would react or do things that they did, and why different people were coming into conflict with each other. Typology was a tool that supported this but it was just a tool because two people of a similar type can be vastly different. The third thing I did was to truly care about them as individuals. I would become personally invested in supporting their growth and their career. If you care about people, you are loyal to them and support them in their careers, they tend to trust you. As a 6, if I were to have a boss like that, it would engender a lot of trust. However, I will be the first to say that there have been some, particularly those with performance issues, that have been well... an issue. Performance in my experience though has little to do with type. Finally, the #1 thing I have consistently heard over the years that people want and don't get enough of on the job is appreciation. Specific verbal appreciation is probably the easiest thing to provide. This feeds into the 6s need to be secure.

    With respect to being the "weapon that people pull out when they need it", I think I have run into this issue to some degree because I can move pretty aggressively into action in crisis situations. Earlier in my career, I would do this "white knight in shining armor" thing and just take over in problem situations. I was very effective with it in achieving short term results. However, it probably wasn't the best way to inspire and build the morale of those I was leading. As time went on, I developed a style in which I didn't come up with all the answers. I would instead facilitate others coming up with them.

    Not sure if that helps but those are some thoughts.

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  9. #29
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    6's wont appreciate your heroics of moving mountains when you are interested because its impossible to tell what is likely to interest you. Your 6's are keenly interested in keeping their jobs, they fear not performing well and you are the focus of that fear because they dont know you.
    I like that comment.

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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    The most important thing I learned when I first got into managing people was the importance of trust. It cuts across all types but it is especially important for 6s to have trusting relationships with others. I don't know about other 6s but I don't judge people negatively because they lack consistency. These things being said, I may not be typical in that regard and I do believe for many people consistency is quite important. For 6s, what may be most important is personal loyalty to the individual vs. some kind of predictable behavior. Is there something you might be doing that causes them to worry about their personal security?

    I'm not sure what will work for you but here is what worked for me. After learning that trust was important, the single most important thing I learned was to extend that trust towards others. When you trust others, they trust you. The second thing I did was to try and understand and appreciate the differences between people. I would in a sense become a student of the person - to seek to understand them, their motivations, what they are like, what they enjoy doing and be able to understand how and why they would react or do things that they did, and why different people were coming into conflict with each other. Typology was a tool that supported this but it was just a tool because two people of a similar type can be vastly different. The third thing I did was to truly care about them as individuals. I would become personally invested in supporting their growth and their career. If you care about people, you are loyal to them and support them in their careers, they tend to trust you. As a 6, if I were to have a boss like that, it would engender a lot of trust. However, I will be the first to say that there have been some, particularly those with performance issues, that have been well... an issue. Performance in my experience though has little to do with type. Finally, the #1 thing I have consistently heard over the years that people want and don't get enough of on the job is appreciation. Specific verbal appreciation is probably the easiest thing to provide. This feeds into the 6s need to be secure.

    With respect to being the "weapon that people pull out when they need it", I think I have run into this issue to some degree because I can move pretty aggressively into action in crisis situations. Earlier in my career, I would do this "white knight in shining armor" thing and just take over in problem situations. I was very effective with it in achieving short term results. However, it probably wasn't the best way to inspire and build the morale of those I was leading. As time went on, I developed a style in which I didn't come up with all the answers. I would instead facilitate others coming up with them.

    Not sure if that helps but those are some thoughts.
    Yes the enfj 6 I'm working with does this to me. It all seems very fake. He OVERLY trusts me. Its obvious he's trying to get me to trust him, which kinda is counterproductive. He projects a LOT and treats me like another 6, which is also frustrating. Its frustrating to be told that my meditation is "me thinking too much" and by constantly interrupting my meditation he is doing me a favor. I spent a lot of time trying to talk to him and get him to connect with me but he doesn't want to become attached. He's nice on a superficial level and always shares his life with me but doesn't actually seem to care about any of my own goals or ever spent time taking my own perspective. The only thing that seems to matter to him is the gym and his self preservation, and I spent a lot of time trying to convince him that if he helps me out I will help him achieve all of that. Its a painful back and forth but my lack of trust in him is often caused by his retarded amount of fishing for compliments and overly agreeable attitude designed to artifically attain my trust. I don't trust enfj's. A lot of em are pretty damn fake.

    He seems to be slowly learning how I operate. Maybe I'll make him read some naranjo.

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